Should liberals leave the catholic church?

[rlg94086]

nicely put. I agree. I don’t know where Christ would hang out, more than likely not here in the colonies Other places in Europe don’t seem to get their knickers in a twist over the things we do.

I agree. As you have pointed out, Christ liked to hang out with sinners, so He definitely would hang out in Europe. There’s a whole lot of “go and sin no more” message needed there.

 

[fix]

Can children be raised out of book? I don’t recall sifting through the afterbirth for the instruction manual.

As I pointed out before the “liberals” mistakenly think truth is in some dusty old book. Truth is a person. Following His law is acting out of love.

I know what anamchara means. Love of a parent toward a child is undefineable but nonetheless meaningful.

Christ has defined love for us. That does not include violating His will.

The greatest commandment is “Love one another as I have loved you.” Speaks volumes…and Jesus “actually said so”.

Yes, and I have posted a link to the Splendour of Truth in this very thread that speaks to that issue. Loving one another never means violating the divine law or natural law. The magisterium of the Church speaks as Christ. Do you have proof your teaching is superior to His?

It wasn’t written in canon law number 5000 para VI, subset 6, page 9000…etc. etc. etc. Laws are made for “organizational” purposes. Some laws referring to say 1870 aren’t really practical in today’s reality. This is where the disagreement comes into play. There are people who openly say they “disagree” with the “letter of the law” mentality while placing the “spirit of the law” in the forefront “to teach as Jesus did”.

As stated this is vague. Which letter of which law do you claim authority to violate?

I don’t recall him (in the Bible) carrying around volumes of books (scrolls) of doctrine when he preached the sermon on the mount, healed the sick, comforted the grieving, dined with tax collectors and prostitutes, spoke in parables…

Do you recall He founded a Church? Do you recall He appointed a Pope that we are to obey? Do you recall He said of His Pope He who hears you hears Me?

I do recall the Pharisees with books (scrolls) reciting ad naseum about Jesus’ disobiedance to the “law”. Jesus spoke from the heart.

Really? Did Christ not say to the people about the Pharisees “Do exactly as they tell you to do, but do not do as they do?” They had the seat of Moses. The probelm was they held people to a false standard that they would not hold themselves to. They were hypocrites, but the moral law was never set aside.

Ah yes, so much to memorize, so much to learn, so much to defend…and be sure you get it right…because some guy back in the middle ages wrote this and there might be an essay test on it…and if you fail…“out you go”…“you liberal you”.

I see. So we cannot trust the Church He speaks through, but we can trust each conscience is infallible? Is that not the definition of relativism?

Being chaptered and versed in the “letter of the law” to the point of blind obiediance to it…never gets to experience the mission of being human. How sad.

Who can say to the Lord I love you, but I will not follow Your law? Seems a bit self righteous, no?

 

[estesbob]

As one my old priest used to say and also the one I have now. It’s not all about the rules, focusing too much on that wrong. It’s about following Christ and that is what Juli was trying to point out. Bringing up the “60s” comment was a way to discredit anything she has to say, it belittles the tone of her post.

No its not about rules. Its about obeying the Lord. We follow Christ by adhering to the teachings of his Church. You have embraced the “care bear” wing of the Catholic Church. whos central doctrine is " there is no sin and if there is sin we must never dare point it ."

BTW-Julianna is perfectly capable of defending herself . Beng you have yet to articulate why you bilieve the way you do I suggest you let her tell us what she meant.

 

[estesbob]

newbetx;2447458:

nicely put. I agree. I don’t know where Christ would hang out, more than likely not here in the colonies Other places in Europe don’t seem to get their knickers in a twist over the things we do.

Evidently you have missed the repeated comments of the Churrch expressing how concerned they are about the continued marginalization of the Church in Europe.

 

[boppaid]

The Magisterium is a power, not a person – your question is like asking “Are there human beings in the electricity.”
.

I thought the Magisterium was a group of men who make decisions for the church, guided by the Holy Spirit? Was I taught incorrectly? I was never taught it was a force like electricity. Are you sure?

 

[vern_humphrey]

Can children be raised out of book? I don’t recall sifting through the afterbirth for the instruction manual. I know what anamchara means. Love of a parent toward a child is undefineable but nonetheless meaningful. The greatest commandment is “Love one another as I have loved you.” Speaks volumes…and Jesus “actually said so”. It wasn’t written in canon law number 5000 para VI, subset 6, page 9000…etc. etc. etc. {/quote]
Are you implying that only you – and a tiny elite handful – love?

That’s the canard – that the rest of us, because we follow the teachings of the Church don’t love.

 

[boppaid]

I don’t see where you get the idea that it is illogical. You reject the Magisterium because the Bishops are men.

I think there is some confusion here. No one is saying they reject the Magisterium. Most “cafeteria Catholics” I know take into account what is said by the Magisterium, use it as a guide, but not an infallible one. I know I don’t agree w/ everything declared infallible. That has led me to only one conclusion…I don’t believe the Magisterium is infallible. I don’t believe in the infallibility of men.

 

[boppaid]

But he also organized, trained and commissioned the Apostles, and sent the Holy Spirit to them. And their successors carry on to this day.
.

Do you not believe the He also sent the Holy Spirit to us? Do you think only the Apostles have the Holy Spirit from God? What about us? I’m starting to think you believe the Apostles got the HS from God, and we get it through them? ???

 

[estesbob]

I think there is some confusion here. No one is saying they reject the Magisterium. Most “cafeteria Catholics” I know take into account what is said by the Magisterium, use it as a guide, but not an infallible one. I know I don’t agree w/ everything declared infallible. That has led me to only one conclusion…I don’t believe the Magisterium is infallible. I don’t believe in the infallibility of men.

Could you give us an example of where the Magestruim got it wrong?

 

[vern_humphrey]

Do you not believe the He also sent the Holy Spirit to us?

Do you believe the Holy Spirit He sent to us over-rides the Holy Spirit He sent to them?

Do you think only the Apostles have the Holy Spirit from God?

Of course.

What about us?

We have the Apostles and their successors to guide us.

I’m starting to think you believe the Apostles got the HS from God, and we get it through them? ???

The process is called the Magisterium – the Church’s authority to teach, which is under the Kharisma of Infallibility.

We, as individuals do not have it – the Church has it, and teaches and guides us.

 

[vern_humphrey]

I thought the Magisterium was a group of men who make decisions for the church, guided by the Holy Spirit? Was I taught incorrectly? I was never taught it was a force like electricity. Are you sure?

Don’t be silly. I used electricity as a simile.

The Magisterium is the Church’s teaching authority. It is not a tangible thing, nor is is “a group of men.”

The Magisterium is exercised by the Bishops – and by no one else. When the Catholic Bishops speak as one, that comes under the Kharisma of Infallibility. They cannot teach error.

 

[patg]

I thought the Magisterium was a group of men who make decisions for the church, guided by the Holy Spirit? Was I taught incorrectly? I was never taught it was a force like electricity. Are you sure?

The magisterium is, as defined in the Catechism:

***100 *The task of interpreting the Word of God authentically has been entrusted solely to the Magisterium of the Church, that is, to the Pope and to the bishops in communion with him.

Sounds like a group of men to me.

 

[M-Dent]

The Magisterium of the Church

85 “The task of giving an authentic interpretation of the Word of God, whether in its written form or in the form of Tradition, has been entrusted to the living teaching office of the Church alone. Its authority in this matter is exercised in the name of Jesus Christ.” This means that the task of interpretation has been entrusted to the bishops in communion with the successor of Peter, the Bishop of Rome.

86 "Yet this Magisterium is not superior to the Word of God, but is its servant. It teaches only what has been handed on to it. At the divine command and with the help of the Holy Spirit, it listens to this devotedly, guards it with dedication and expounds it faithfully. All that it proposes for belief as being divinely revealed is drawn from this single deposit of faith."

87 Mindful of Christ’s words to his apostles: “He who hears you, hears me”, the faithful receive with docility the teachings and directives that their pastors give them in different forms.

 

[rlg94086]

I think there is some confusion here. No one is saying they reject the Magisterium. Most “cafeteria Catholics” I know take into account what is said by the Magisterium, use it as a guide, but not an infallible one. I know I don’t agree w/ everything declared infallible. That has led me to only one conclusion…I don’t believe the Magisterium is infallible. I don’t believe in the infallibility of men.

That is refreshingly honest. What you are basically saying is that “cafeteria Catholics” don’t believe in the authority of the Catholic Church. That’s pretty much the reason that some people don’t understand why “cafeteria Catholics” stay. There are a lot of people who don’t believe in the authority of the Church - they are called Protestants.

 

[estesbob]

That is refreshingly honest.** What you are basically saying is that “cafeteria Catholics” don’t believe in the authority of the Catholic Church. **That’s pretty much the reason that some people don’t understand why “cafeteria Catholics” stay. There are a lot of people who don’t believe in the authority of the Church - they are called Protestants.

And once you reject the authority of the Church anything goes. i don’t think most Cafeteria Catholics realize the implications of their actions. I had a conversation with a Catholic who didn’t believe in the Immaculate Conception.I asked he that of the Church lied to us about the Immaculate Conception how do we know they didn’t lie to us about the resurrection?

Therein lies the rub-once you reject any teaching of the Church you put into doubt all its teachings. And this is where poorly catechized Catholics get lured away form the Church.

 

[rlg94086]

Exactly. If the Chuch isn’t the authority, who is?

The Bible? - Well, that’s sola scriptura, join the Protestants.
Your heart? - Okay, form the Church of Bob.

Jesus? Absolutely. That’s why Jesus gave us a Church.

87 Mindful of Christ’s words to his apostles: “He who hears you, hears me”,49 the faithful receive with docility the teachings and directives that their pastors give them in different forms.

And once you reject the authority of the Church anything goes. i don’t think most Cafeteria Catholics realize the implications of their actions. I had a conversation with a Catholic who didn’t believe in the Immaculate Conception.I asked he that of the Church lied to us about the Immaculate Conception how do we know they didn’t lie to us about the resurrection?

Therein lies the rub-once you reject any teaching of the Church you put into doubt all its teachings. And this is where poorly catechized Catholics get lured away form the Church.

 

[anamchara]

No its not about rules. Its about obeying the Lord. We follow Christ by adhering to the teachings of his Church. You have embraced the “care bear” wing of the Catholic Church. whos central doctrine is " there is no sin and if there is sin we must never dare point it ."

BTW-Julianna is perfectly capable of defending herself . Beng you have yet to articulate why you bilieve the way you do I suggest you let her tell us what she meant.

It’s also about love and forgiveness and if you would actually read ALL my posts instead of twisting what I’ve been saying on here you would know exactly what I believe. As I said before there is no reason to debate with you because you have decided in your own mind what kind of Catholic I am.

I’ll defend whoever I want on here, thank you

 

[anamchara]

I think there is some confusion here. No one is saying they reject the Magisterium.

THANK YOU!!! and welcome to the thread of misconceptions.

 

[estesbob]

It’s also about love and forgiveness and if you would actually read ALL my posts instead of twisting what I’ve been saying on here you would know exactly what I believe. As I said before there is no reason to debate with you because you have decided in your own mind what kind of Catholic I am.

I’ll defend whoever I want on here, thank you

I dont know “what kind of catholic” you are since so far all you have said is that we must "love’ and then criticized us for acting like Pharaees.

I guess its easier to defend you beliefs when you never tell anyone what they are.

 

[anamchara]

And once you reject the authority of the Church anything goes. i don’t think most Cafeteria Catholics realize the implications of their actions. I had a conversation with a Catholic who didn’t believe in the Immaculate Conception.I asked he that of the Church lied to us about the Immaculate Conception how do we know they didn’t lie to us about the resurrection?

Therein lies the rub-once you reject any teaching of the Church you put into doubt all its teachings. And this is where poorly catechized Catholics get lured away form the Church.

I disagree with this. People’s faith is not that weak nor are they so stupid. They fall away usually because of the problems within the Church and the way they are treated. Most fallen away Catholics were extremely hurt in some way and are very bitter toward the Church.