Should Lutherans and Catholics "Engage Together in Catechesis?

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angelic06 said:
Catholics cannot ever receive Holy Communion in a Lutheran church, since from our point of view, Lutherans have not retained a valid priesthood and episcopate (unless a Lutheran bishop or priest was ordained at the hands of an Old Catholic bishop or some other bishop in churches recognized by the Catholic Church as having valid orders).
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Of which, there are quite a few in northern European countries. However, unfortunately, most of them belong to church bodies which are Lutheran in name only (and in some cases, barely Christian, if at all).
 
EvangelCatholic said:
Keep in mind that the Lutheran-Catholic Dialogue has already accepted the notion that Lutherans could receive holy Communion in Catholic churches in the same way that Orthodox can. Catholics were not encouraged to commune in Lutheran churches, however.
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And Orthodox are only (officially) allowed to commune at a Catholic Liturgy with the permission/blessing of their bishop. That is not something that happens very often or is at all easy to come by.

If Catholics were encouraged in any way, shape, or form to commune in Lutheran churches, I’d really have to wonder about the orthodoxy of those doing the encouragement.
 
Lest anyone think I am unecumenical, I am in favor of Catholics occasionally inviting Protestants over to Vespers (part of the Divine Office), with a choir made of people from many confessions (and music suitable to them, such as Tallis, Byrd, etc.).

The sermon (if any), however, must completely be in accordance with the Holy Catholic Faith.
 
angelic06 said:
Well… I should say in defense of those favoring closer ecumenical relations that Pope Benedict XVI was present many years ago at Vespers prayed together by clergy of multiple confessions…and no, Vespers is not some “bland prayer service”, but an integral part of the Divine Office (Liturgy of the Hours). But I am in full agreement that Catholics should not ordinarily be present at non-Catholic Eucharistic services.
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You’re right, of course. I was exaggerating for effect. Catholic (😃 ) Vespers is hardly a bland service–especially when celebrated with the reverence befitting a Pope!
 
MichaelinMD said:
You’re right, of course. I was exaggerating for effect. Catholic (😃 ) Vespers is hardly a bland service–especially when celebrated with the reverence befitting a Pope!
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Western liturgy just doesn’t compare with Eastern, though (Great Vespers). If you’re ever convinced of justification by faith alone, feel free to contact me so we can found the Byzantine Lutheran Church 😃

My wife is Catholic, and I had the pleasure of going to a Melkite liturgy in Milwaukee; fantabulous!
 
Per_Crucem said:
Of which, there are quite a few in northern European countries. However, unfortunately, most of them belong to church bodies which are Lutheran in name only (and in some cases, barely Christian, if at all).
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Odd that you would characterize the Lutheran World Federation that includes 90% of all Lutherans and who was the partner with the Catholic Church in these talks as “barely Christian, if at all”. So the Pope would work with “barely Christians” toward reunification?

I think you may want to give this topic more thought before posting.
 
EvangelCatholic said:
Odd that you would characterize the Lutheran World Federation that includes 90% of all Lutherans and who was the partner with the Catholic Church in these talks as “barely Christian, if at all”. So the Pope would work with “barely Christians” toward reunification?

I think you may want to give this topic more thought before posting.
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I don’t question the Lutherans that belong to the LWF, necessarily. I am sure there are plenty of Christians within church bodies that have membership in the LWF. I know many fine Christians in the ELCA. However, many (not all) of those bodies are, yes, functionally non-Christian. They are social justice organizations with crosses in their meeting places. Liberalism is not Christianity.

If, by reunification, you mean that the Pope wants them to become Catholic, yes, he should work with them, so that they will become Christian.
 
Per_Crucem said:
I don’t question the Lutherans that belong to the LWF, necessarily. I am sure there are plenty of Christians within church bodies that have membership in the LWF. I know many fine Christians in the ELCA. However, many (not all) of those bodies are, yes, functionally non-Christian. They are social justice organizations with crosses in their meeting places. Liberalism is not Christianity.

If, by reunification, you mean that the Pope wants them to become Catholic, yes, he should work with them, so that they will become Christian.
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Am I correct that you are suggesting these Lutherans should become Catholic “so that they will become Christian”?
 
EvangelCatholic said:
Am I correct that you are suggesting these Lutherans should become Catholic “so that they will become Christian”?
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If they themselves support the liberal theological/social positions prevalent in some LWF member bodies, yes. Unlike those bodies, Rome is a Christian church.

Do you honestly believe that Rome would unify with church bodies that hold homosexuality/marriage as acceptable and not sinful, and that abortion is permissible in certain instances, and other positions inconsistent with the Christian faith?
 
Per_Crucem said:
If they themselves support the liberal theological/social positions prevalent in some LWF member bodies, yes. Unlike those bodies, Rome is a Christian church.

Do you honestly believe that Rome would unify with church bodies that hold homosexuality/marriage as acceptable and not sinful, and that abortion is permissible in certain instances, and other positions inconsistent with the Christian faith?
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You have certainly defined what you think of me.

These Dialogues go back over 50 years. So, all along, the Catholics were being fooled by Lutherans who are not even Christian, per your opinion :eek:
 
EvangelCatholic said:
You have certainly defined what you think of me.
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No, I didn’t. I don’t know you at all and can’t make that judgment. I do, however, know what the LWF and its associate churches believe in and stand for.
These Dialogues go back over 50 years. So, all along, the Catholics were being fooled by Lutherans who are not even Christian, per your opinion :eek:
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The Catholics weren’t fooled. Their purpose was to make the Lutherans Catholic. They may have succeeded on sola fide, but given the LWF’s moral positions, they haven’t made the LWF come any closer to Christianity on those fronts.
 
Per_Crucem said:
No, I didn’t. I don’t know you at all and can’t make that judgment. I do, however, know what the LWF and its associate churches believe in and stand for.

The Catholics weren’t fooled. Their purpose was to make the Lutherans Catholic. They may have succeeded on sola fide, but given the LWF’s moral positions, they haven’t made the LWF come any closer to Christianity on those fronts.
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I am staggered by how easily you decide who is Christian. Isn’t this some sort of violation of CAF rules?
 
EvangelCatholic said:
“The Church as Koinonia of Salvation: Its Structures and Ministries” [2004] recommends that Lutheran and Catholic:

bishops have retreats together, priests and pastors have mutual sermon preparation study as well as lay catechesis, evangelization, peace and justice ventures, social ministry, and attendance at each other’s diocesan and synodical assemblies"

Doesn’t that suggest significant unity between Lutherans and Catholics?
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I certainly think this is possible, under the proper circumstances and guidelines. ISTM, however, that it isn’t a good idea for the laity to do this on their own. Clergy from both sides should be involved, as joint presenters. Obviously, that would take two men capable of working together, with a well-developed curriculum that presents our convergences with joy, and our differences with charity and grace.

Jon
 
EvangelCatholic said:
I am staggered by how easily you decide who is Christian. Isn’t this some sort of violation of CAF rules?
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Really? Saying that homosexuality as well as abortion are opposed to Christian moral teaching and are, therefore, non-Christian by nature would be against CATHOLIC Answers Forums rules? :hmmm:

I didn’t say you were not a Christian.
 
Per_Crucem said:
Really? Saying that homosexuality as well as abortion are opposed to Christian moral teaching and are, therefore, non-Christian by nature would be against CATHOLIC Answers Forums rules? :hmmm:

I didn’t say you were not a Christian.
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Frankly, I think you have said too much. 😊
 
EvangelCatholic said:
Odd that you would characterize the Lutheran World Federation that includes 90% of all Lutherans and who was the partner with the Catholic Church in these talks as “barely Christian, if at all”. So the Pope would work with “barely Christians” toward reunification?

I think you may want to give this topic more thought before posting.
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Nope. I’ve already explained this to you. That ol’ “90% of Lutherans…” line doesn’t fly anymore. The largest Lutheran body in the world just broke fellowship with the ELCA and Church of Sweden and has sought ties to the LCMS and the ILC. I’m not a fan of statistics, but I will debunk false ones like “90%”: *“On any given Sunday there are more Ethiopian Lutherans at worship than ELCA Lutherans in any one month.” *

Whether you like it or not, Lutheranism is shifting back to Confessionalism and away from Liberalism. The Roman Catholic Church, to its tremendous intellectual credit, has noted this and begun seeking ties with Lutherans who have not strayed into Left field doctrinally.
 
Thankfully this thread has nothing to do with engaging other Lutherans in catechesis especially when the LCMS censures its pastors for even praying with Roman Catholics like after 9/11 and the massacres of the little children in Sandy Hook.

This is a low point for me on CAF when I am embarrassed to be associated with some who call themselves Lutheran/ Christian.
 
EvangelCatholic said:
Thankfully this thread has nothing to do with engaging other Lutherans in catechesis especially when the LCMS censures its pastors for even praying with Roman Catholics like after 9/11 and the massacres of the little children in Sandy Hook.
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The LCMS did not censure its pastors after 9/11 or Sandy Hook for praying with Roman Catholics. That was for praying with non-Christians/Muslims, et al.

And it absolutely has to do with the thread topic. Why in heavens would the Catholic Church have pastors who support homosexual marriage and abortion catechizing Catholic laity?
 
Let me assure some perhaps gullible ‘Lutheran’ posters that the Roman Catholic Church knew exactly who they were dialogging with even identifying the ELCA well after that Synod began ordaining women.

Absurd insults to the integrity of both Lutherans and Catholics by those on the outside of the process.
 
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