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TLM_Altar_Boy
Guest
Ain’t it grand, though?
The only problem is that I still have trouble explaining to my mom just why we plan all our vacations around the Ecclesia Dei TLM directory.
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The only problem is that I still have trouble explaining to my mom just why we plan all our vacations around the Ecclesia Dei TLM directory.
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Andreas_Hofer
Guest
While I don’t see the Tridentine rite ever reclaiming its status as the normative Mass of the Latin rite, I don’t really see why the Novus Ordo should be retained, other than the fact that it is now so deeply entrenched due merely to its age, and thus once again radically altering the liturgy for a generation of Catholics does not seem pastorally wise. But if we are to ever get an authentic implementation of Vatican II, the NO needs rather extensive reforms, since it essentially ignores the guidelines for litugical reform set forth by the Council Fathers (Latin retaining pride of place, Gregorian chant and sacred polyphony also remaining priveleged, organic change (not liturgists digging up centuries dead practices), etc.). I’ve never even attended a Tridentine Mass (well, once, but long ago), but even I recognize that Paul VI must have needed tremendous chutzpah to so openly defy his own ecumenical council.
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Psalm45_9
Guest
I am not that old, but I have a deep affection for the Tridentine High Mass. I can not explain it, I feel like a freak around other people my age because they just can not see what I see about the TLM. It is not so much the Latin that attracts me, but it is the revernce. People are on their knees for most of the Mass, people recive communion kneeling and only their tounges touch the host, and the priest kneels and then raises the consecracted host and wine with the support of the altar boys. It is the consecration that blows me away, I can visulaize the burden that the Priest carries, Christ himself. The Latin and the Chants add to the mystery, which I love. There are just some meanings that have been lost in the English translation. I hope the TLM never dies, it is the roots of our faith!!!
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DominvsVobiscvm
Guest
The Tridentine Mass will definitely fad away at some date, but then so will the Missa Normativa.
First off, the Mass is the Mass is the Mass. Despite readical traditionalist gripes to the contrary, and abuses notwithstanding, the Missal of 1970 is essentially the same as the Missal of 1570. Most people have never seen a *Missa Normativa * celebrated properly, and so they can’t see this connection.
That having been said, I believe that the 1970 Missal is flawed in many serious ways (e.g. way too many options); I think eventually what we will see is a “reform of the reform,” hopefully something closer to the Missal of 1965, which was a more simplified version of the Tridentine Mass, and one which allowed more visible participation on the part of the congregation. Meanwhile, in most diocese a well-celebrated Tridentine Mass is the one thatcomes closer to the spirit of Vatican II than what passes off as the* Missa Normativa*.
First off, the Mass is the Mass is the Mass. Despite readical traditionalist gripes to the contrary, and abuses notwithstanding, the Missal of 1970 is essentially the same as the Missal of 1570. Most people have never seen a *Missa Normativa * celebrated properly, and so they can’t see this connection.
That having been said, I believe that the 1970 Missal is flawed in many serious ways (e.g. way too many options); I think eventually what we will see is a “reform of the reform,” hopefully something closer to the Missal of 1965, which was a more simplified version of the Tridentine Mass, and one which allowed more visible participation on the part of the congregation. Meanwhile, in most diocese a well-celebrated Tridentine Mass is the one thatcomes closer to the spirit of Vatican II than what passes off as the* Missa Normativa*.
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jordan
Guest
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Mandi
Guest
Psalm45:9:
Who out there can be left untouched by Psalm 42. The heart rings pure joy as the words are prayed as you longingly approach the Altar of God.
P. I will go in unto the altar of God
S. To God who giveth joy to my youth
P. Judge me, O God, and distinguish my cause from the nation that is not holy: deliver me from the unjust and deceitful man.
S. For Thou, O God, art my strength: why hast Thou cast me off? and why go I sorrowful whilst the enemy afflicteth me?
P. Send forth Thy light and Thy truth: they have conducted me and brought me unto Thy holy mount, and into Thy tabernacles.
S. And I will go into the altar of god: to god who giveth joy to my youth.
P. To Thee, O God, my God, I will give praise upon the harp; why art thou sad, O my soul, and why dost thou disquiet me?
No, this will never die…
(Just as a side note here the SSPX and "sedevantist groups are turning out priests and religious like mad so it would seem that The Traditional Mass (whether schismatic or not) will be around for a long, long time.)
There is no place on earth closer to home than the Altar of God.
Who out there can be left untouched by Psalm 42. The heart rings pure joy as the words are prayed as you longingly approach the Altar of God.
P. I will go in unto the altar of God
S. To God who giveth joy to my youth
P. Judge me, O God, and distinguish my cause from the nation that is not holy: deliver me from the unjust and deceitful man.
S. For Thou, O God, art my strength: why hast Thou cast me off? and why go I sorrowful whilst the enemy afflicteth me?
P. Send forth Thy light and Thy truth: they have conducted me and brought me unto Thy holy mount, and into Thy tabernacles.
S. And I will go into the altar of god: to god who giveth joy to my youth.
P. To Thee, O God, my God, I will give praise upon the harp; why art thou sad, O my soul, and why dost thou disquiet me?
No, this will never die…
(Just as a side note here the SSPX and "sedevantist groups are turning out priests and religious like mad so it would seem that The Traditional Mass (whether schismatic or not) will be around for a long, long time.)
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krazykatlady
Guest
Why should anyone wish that the crowning glory of the Catholic church fade away? We have no Tridentine Mass in our diocese and it looks like if I am to experience again what drew me to the Church in the first place I am going to have to fly to a city which has the Mass. In fact, starting in October I am going to fly to Washington, DC at least every other month so I can go to TLM at Old St. Mary’s.
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DominvsVobiscvm
Guest
It’s exagerrated sentiments like these that give the Tridentine Mass and its devotees a bad name.
The “crowning glory” of the Church is the Mass. Period. It’s not the fact that said Mass contains Psalm 42, or three Confiteors, or nine Kyries, or a Last Gospel.
The Mass is continually evolving, and will continue to do so until the end of time, when Our Lord returns in glory and does away with all sacraments.
The *Missa Normativa * isn’t perfect; but then, neither is the Tridentine! Perfect in efficaciousness, yes; both of them are, each just as much as the other. But the accidentals (i.e. everything surrounding the consecration) will always change, hopefully for the better.
While the Missa Normativa is, I think, a far cry from what Vatican II wanted, especially with all the abuses, anyone who was around before the Council or talked with those who were know that liturgical reform was desperately needed.
The Tridentine Mass we see today in our indults parishes is hardly the pre-Vatican II Mass, as it was usually celebrated. Rather, it’s a polished-up version of that Mass, which we wouldn’t have were it not for Vatican II.
The “crowning glory” of the Church is the Mass. Period. It’s not the fact that said Mass contains Psalm 42, or three Confiteors, or nine Kyries, or a Last Gospel.
The Mass is continually evolving, and will continue to do so until the end of time, when Our Lord returns in glory and does away with all sacraments.
The *Missa Normativa * isn’t perfect; but then, neither is the Tridentine! Perfect in efficaciousness, yes; both of them are, each just as much as the other. But the accidentals (i.e. everything surrounding the consecration) will always change, hopefully for the better.
While the Missa Normativa is, I think, a far cry from what Vatican II wanted, especially with all the abuses, anyone who was around before the Council or talked with those who were know that liturgical reform was desperately needed.
The Tridentine Mass we see today in our indults parishes is hardly the pre-Vatican II Mass, as it was usually celebrated. Rather, it’s a polished-up version of that Mass, which we wouldn’t have were it not for Vatican II.
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deogratias
Guest
The Tridentine Mass we see today in our indults parishes is hardly the pre-Vatican II Mass, as it was usually celebrated. Rather, it’s a polished-up version of that Mass, which we wouldn’t have were it not for Vatican II.
http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/statusicon_cad/user_offline.gif forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cab/report.gif
Quite a statement for someone born in 1984 to make don’t you think?
I was there before Vatican II - it is the same and how do you figure to say we would not have it if not for Vatican II.
Documentation please - not opinion.
http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/statusicon_cad/user_offline.gif forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cab/report.gif
Quite a statement for someone born in 1984 to make don’t you think?
I was there before Vatican II - it is the same and how do you figure to say we would not have it if not for Vatican II.
Documentation please - not opinion.
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kwitz
Guest
I wish I could give rep points for this
. I’ll have to file the “perfect in effaciousness” statement because it concisely sums up both version of the the Mass. On a thread earlier, I said used to think I was a conservative, orthodox Catholic as defined by the fact that we practice NFP. But I know that because I have no desire to attend a TLM and don’t think it will solve all of the Church’s ills, I’m a flaming heretic to some.Kris
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DominvsVobiscvm
Guest
It’s difficult to document personal experiences.
Yes, I’m only 20 years old, and only a few years ago I had a very idealized view of the pre-Vatican II Church. After being a postulant for the Society of Saint John Cantius, and speaking with many, many older people in the “Traditional Movement,” and even my own parents and grandparents, I’ve come to realize that liturgical abuses are not new with Vatican II. They always existed, their nature today are simply different.
Your average Tridentine Mass, before Vatican II, was a Low Mass, even on Sundays and Feast Days. The priest would walk into the sanctuary with the sacred vessels, and then mumble his way through the Mass with his servers, many times negelcting sermons. Most of the laity, espcially in non-English-speaking countries (like my parents’ Sicily) couldn’t even read, so they had no idea what was going on at Mass. Yes, they understood the whole notion of sacrifice and communion, but they were hardly disposed to receive these graces, as we are today when we have the luxury of being literate and able to follow along with Missals. The priest only repeated the readings in English when he felt like doing it.
Some of the more pious old women and old people would pray their rosaries during Mass. Most others would be doing whatever else they felt like. They would be knitting a sweater, the men would go outside for a smoke, etc. Communion was recevied only about four times a year, if even that. Often, priests, while not ad-libbing, celebrated Mass sloppily, not with the precision of ritual movements that we often see today.
And there were abuses even to the occasional, rare High Mass. I know for a fact that many priests, not wanting to bother with things like the incensation prayers and other silent Latin prayers, would ad-lib them, saying things like “Hummina, hummina, hummina” or, in one case I’ve heard of, they would, while incensing the altar, start mutteing the names of family members, “Bob, Lucy, Joe, etc.” just to make it look like they were saying something.
Yes, the Mass should be awe-inspiring and solemn, but in the “olden days” the sense of awe was by far too great. Catholcisim was not something dynamic to be presented to a dying world; most of the laity did not appreciate their own royal priesthood, and their need to sanctify the temporal order. For them, the Faith was mostly a bunch of rules and devotions. the real work of evangelization was for the priests and religious.
The Mass itself was remote, and difficult to participate in. We look at the words of Psalm 42, the Roman Canon, the Offertory and Communion prayers, and we say, “Oh, how beautiful!” but this was not the average sentiment of your average Catholic 50 years ago, many of whom did not have Missals or were not encouraged to use them, or who could not read.
It’s only when the Tridentine Mass was taken away that people really began to appreciate what they had taken for granted for so long, and, once they got it back, began to celebrate it the way it should have been done all along.
You are aware that liturgical reforms began long before Vatican II, aren’t you? In fact, it had its beginnings with Saint Pius X, who revolutionized Catholic life everywhere when he encouraged people to actually receive communion weekly, even daily! And even this reccomendation was followed, by few, very few Catholics until recent times (and now, of course, it’s being abused by those who receive in mortal sin).
The point is, men are imperfect, and any rite can be abused. Yes, even the Tridentine.
Yes, I’m only 20 years old, and only a few years ago I had a very idealized view of the pre-Vatican II Church. After being a postulant for the Society of Saint John Cantius, and speaking with many, many older people in the “Traditional Movement,” and even my own parents and grandparents, I’ve come to realize that liturgical abuses are not new with Vatican II. They always existed, their nature today are simply different.
Your average Tridentine Mass, before Vatican II, was a Low Mass, even on Sundays and Feast Days. The priest would walk into the sanctuary with the sacred vessels, and then mumble his way through the Mass with his servers, many times negelcting sermons. Most of the laity, espcially in non-English-speaking countries (like my parents’ Sicily) couldn’t even read, so they had no idea what was going on at Mass. Yes, they understood the whole notion of sacrifice and communion, but they were hardly disposed to receive these graces, as we are today when we have the luxury of being literate and able to follow along with Missals. The priest only repeated the readings in English when he felt like doing it.
Some of the more pious old women and old people would pray their rosaries during Mass. Most others would be doing whatever else they felt like. They would be knitting a sweater, the men would go outside for a smoke, etc. Communion was recevied only about four times a year, if even that. Often, priests, while not ad-libbing, celebrated Mass sloppily, not with the precision of ritual movements that we often see today.
And there were abuses even to the occasional, rare High Mass. I know for a fact that many priests, not wanting to bother with things like the incensation prayers and other silent Latin prayers, would ad-lib them, saying things like “Hummina, hummina, hummina” or, in one case I’ve heard of, they would, while incensing the altar, start mutteing the names of family members, “Bob, Lucy, Joe, etc.” just to make it look like they were saying something.
Yes, the Mass should be awe-inspiring and solemn, but in the “olden days” the sense of awe was by far too great. Catholcisim was not something dynamic to be presented to a dying world; most of the laity did not appreciate their own royal priesthood, and their need to sanctify the temporal order. For them, the Faith was mostly a bunch of rules and devotions. the real work of evangelization was for the priests and religious.
The Mass itself was remote, and difficult to participate in. We look at the words of Psalm 42, the Roman Canon, the Offertory and Communion prayers, and we say, “Oh, how beautiful!” but this was not the average sentiment of your average Catholic 50 years ago, many of whom did not have Missals or were not encouraged to use them, or who could not read.
It’s only when the Tridentine Mass was taken away that people really began to appreciate what they had taken for granted for so long, and, once they got it back, began to celebrate it the way it should have been done all along.
You are aware that liturgical reforms began long before Vatican II, aren’t you? In fact, it had its beginnings with Saint Pius X, who revolutionized Catholic life everywhere when he encouraged people to actually receive communion weekly, even daily! And even this reccomendation was followed, by few, very few Catholics until recent times (and now, of course, it’s being abused by those who receive in mortal sin).
The point is, men are imperfect, and any rite can be abused. Yes, even the Tridentine.
K
kwitz
Guest
Oops I forgot to say that I don’t think the TLM should fade away - I just don’t want it overglorified and I want to attend Mass in English myself.
Kris
Kris
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deogratias
Guest
I had none of the problems you mentioned - Every Sunday we had both a high and a low Mass - both in Pittsburgh where I born and raised and later in a small town I moved to when I was 17… My husbands entire family imigrated from Sicily also but latin was easier for them than for me, not being that different from Italian.
As for all the other abuses you mention to have occurred with such authority - until you can show me some documentation that I can accept, how do I know that what you say is not the exception if it occurred at all and just something you have heard or read as someone else’s opinion. Certainly none of the priests I knew or still know were so neglectful as to make up mumbo jumbo as you say.
Yes I remember Pius X and that he instituted reforms for the better but what does that have to do with your comment that if it were not for Vatican II we would not have the Tridentine Mass we have today?
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So this was long before I was born, and before my mother was born. Not all Catholics received but most did not receive without confession as may be the case today, but still a goodly number did and the lines were always long for confession. I thank him also for instituting the use of Gregorian Chant in all Masses at that time. His list of accomplishments are long and he is to be admired by all Catholics.
This in no way is saying I believe one Mass is better than the other, I just cannot quite accept your version of Mass before Vatican II to be valid because it was not what I experienced then and you did not, you only have the word of others - now you have my word as well.
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JNB
Guest
The Novus Ordo in many ways actually resmbles the ordinary of the Dominican Mass, when I looked at the Dominican Mass ordinary, I was sort of surprised how stripped down it was compared to the TLM.
I will say that the current missal, using The Confetior, using Eucharistic Prayer I, using the Graduals for the Psalms, celebrated in Latin, facing the altar with no altar girls, no EMHCs and all using the rail does come close to a TLM, as you have seen at St. John Cantius first hand.
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frdave20
Guest
No i am not a priest. i will be entering a religious order in september 2005 after i graduate from college. my friends know of my decision and so I am, amongst them, ‘nicknamed’ fr. dave – hence my username.
also, i do stand corrected about my misinformation concerning Anglican-use Parishes. Our Lady of Atonement is not the only one. I was mistakened.
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Panis_Angelicas
Guest
Not a flaming heretic, just a flaming poster.
This is a real creative way of flaming the traditional Catholics who’ve said nothing at all on this thread against you or the Mass you prefer. It’s a clever way of slamming, dissing, and deriding people because of their choice of worship, with which you disagree. It’s also very uncharitable.
And I’m not a TLM attendee, either. But I recognize an insult when I read one.
Just a suggestion: try thinking of the traditionalists with a bit more love in your heart.
Pax Christi. <><
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Catholic_Eagle
Guest
Dominusvobiscum:
The Low Mass mentality is an Irish/American thing. The Irish are/were the backbone of Catholicism here in the USA. Because of this the Irish bishops thought the seminarians in an Irish manner. And that is how the USA was a low Mass center. This is not true with the whole church. This was only normal amongst Irish and/ or Irish taught Catholics. The Church in the USA is not the whole CHurch.
The Low Mass mentality is an Irish/American thing. The Irish are/were the backbone of Catholicism here in the USA. Because of this the Irish bishops thought the seminarians in an Irish manner. And that is how the USA was a low Mass center. This is not true with the whole church. This was only normal amongst Irish and/ or Irish taught Catholics. The Church in the USA is not the whole CHurch.
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kwitz
Guest
Panis Angelicas:
Kris
I believe I did say I didn’t want the TLM to fade away but it’s just not my preference in a later post. I also believe there were several posters who stated that they wanted the NO to fade away. And yes, I truly think there are “some” (not all) who think the whole NO is heretical who have not gone schismatic. I have said several times that as long as it approved by the Pope, I don’t care how Mass is celebrated. I just truly resent the implication that all was perfect in a “Happy Days” era Church and will be again. The Church has always contained us lowly humans with all of our faults and these were there long ago and unfortunately probably far into the future.Not a flaming heretic, just a flaming poster.
This is a real creative way of flaming the traditional Catholics who’ve said nothing at all on this thread against you or the Mass you prefer. It’s a clever way of slamming, dissing, and deriding people because of their choice of worship, with which you disagree. It’s also very uncharitable.
And I’m not a TLM attendee, either. But I recognize an insult when I read one.
Just a suggestion: try thinking of the traditionalists with a bit more love in your heart.
Pax Christi. <><
Kris
K
krazykatlady
Guest
I attend the Novus Ordo every Sunday and sing in the choir. I have no doubts that the Mass at my parish is completely valid. OTOH, TLM was the Mass of the Church for 500 years. Take out an old Missal and read the beautiful, poetic language of the Mass. In many dioceses this Mass is being actively supressed despite the fact that JPII himself asked for a generous application of the Tridentine Mass.
Noone has to tell me about abuses of the TLM. I was there, I know they existed. But they are minor compared to some of the terrible abuses which have taken place in the N.O. I strongly believe that it would be a mistake to let this Mass die out and I’m in good company because he Pope feels the same way.
Noone has to tell me about abuses of the TLM. I was there, I know they existed. But they are minor compared to some of the terrible abuses which have taken place in the N.O. I strongly believe that it would be a mistake to let this Mass die out and I’m in good company because he Pope feels the same way.
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Chris_in_Mich
Guest
frdave20 said:
Your assertion is correct, I’m however not familiar with Jesuit norms, could you enlighten me on why this comment from Fr. Reese could be expected from a Jesuit?
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