Should the Tridentine Mass fade away?

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Mandi:
Do I think their doing this all for the wrong reasons?

You bet!

However I personally believe the reason for the new found interest in the Tridentine Mass is not so innocent either.

Detroit is a hot bed of Traditional Catholics - there are several “sede vacantist” groups there as well as SSPX. St. Mary’s in Wayne Mich. is a huge Catholic Church and across the street sits a little “sede vacantist” parish that is bursting at the seams, 3 Masses on Sunday, a school with nuns and all - and it would appear the money just keeps pouring in…

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That’s one of the reasons the Indult Mass in Detroit will have problems. The people want Traditional Sacraments,feast day Masses, and a parish school. Why go to the Indult Mass if you can’t get Traditional Sacraments[like baptism and confirmation]? The SSPX,[non schismatic]CMRI, and ICR[sedevacantist institute] will happily offer the Sacraments to you. I hope the Archbishop will allow Traditional Baptisms,Confirmations, and schoool education.That would get the Traditionalist Catholic to the Indult Mass.
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The traditional Mass is an immemorial custom dating in its essentials to many centuries prior to Trent.
 
The traditional Mass is an immemorial custom dating in its essentials to many centuries prior to Trent.
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The same thing can be said of the Missa Normativa, which in its essentials is not all that different from the Missa Tridentina.
 
Dom - I have noticed you tend to find something wrong with all forms of Mass rather than something right. The only time you got excited about one was when I posted something about the 1965 Missal.

I am never sure if you are just playing Devil’s advocate or if you are becoming a young cynic 😛

Anyway, I would like to know what you think is or would be the perfect Mass.

PS: I passed on your message to Richard yesterday when I attended our less than Perfect Tridentine Mass (priests still learning) which with all its imperfections is still my preference. Probably we were granted it for the same reasons as Detroit was theirs. I really don’t care what the reasons were/are, I am just so thankful to the Holy Father for providing for the Indult, to the Bishop for granting the Indult and to all those in our Latin Mass Community who are working so hard to make it a reality, including the priests who are stumbling but trying to do it right.
 
Dom-

please pardon my apparent ignorance… what is *Missa Normativa? *You have tossed that phrase around and I have yet been able to determine what exactly what it is. please enlighten me…
 
The Tridentine Mass cannot “fade away” because 1) it is superior to the NO, anyone who goes to them and compares the two can tell you that 2) Pope St. Pius V in his (infallible) Papal Bull Quo Primum stated that the Traditional Latin Mass must last “in perpetuity” and if anyone would venture to change such a rule that he will incur “the wrath of Almighty God and the Holy Apostles Peter and Paul.”
 
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deogratias:
Missa Normativa = Normative Missal aka Novos Ordo Missal
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Words have meaning and we should strive for accuracy. It is not NO Mass. Missa Normativa is as valid as any Mass has every been, It is not inferior.
 
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pnewton:
Words have meaning and we should strive for accuracy. It is not NO Mass. Missa Normativa is as valid as any Mass has every been, It is not inferior.
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I never said NO Mass, I never said Missa Normativa was invalid. Someone asked for a definition - I gave them one - what’s your beef here???
 
Dom - I have noticed you tend to find something wrong with all forms of Mass rather than something right. The only time you got excited about one was when I posted something about the 1965 Missal.
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I am never sure if you are just playing Devil’s advocate or if you are becoming a young cynic
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A litle of both. 😛
Anyway, I would like to know what you think is or would be the perfect Mass.
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The Mass’s external splendor will never be perfect, devised as it is by sinful, fallible human beings. It will only reach perfection in Heaven.

Trad_Catholic:

Sit down before you hurt yourself. You obviously know nothing of traditional Catholicism.

An equal cannot bind an equal, and it’s ludicrous to believe that Saint Pius V meant to bind his successors to one single solitary form of the Mass. Don’t be ludicrous.

Not only that, but similar language has been used of other disciplinary measures that have been subsequently modified or revoked (e.g. legislation governing papal elections).

Third, by your logic (and I use the word loosely in your case) all Popes who revised the Missal from 1570 to 1962 have incurred the wrath of Almighty God for their changes in the Mass, including Saint Pius V, who in his own lifetime reformed the Missal even after issuing Quo Primum.

Lastly, the Missa Normativa is, theoretically at least, not a separate Rite from the Tridentine, but merely a new edition of it, albeit one more dramatically revised.

I use the phrase Missa Normativa because it’s less pejorative than Novus Ordo; in my opinion, at least.
 
I asked my pastor about the Indult, he said it is not to be celbrated every Sunday of the year, that is not the intent of Vatican II, I really don’t know who to believe anymore.
 
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deogratias:
what’s your beef here???
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Absolutely none with your answer. You answered the question fro frdave20 well.

The post previous to my post called it NO Mass as well as stating his choice for mass was superior. I quoted you because what you said was contextual and I hate to repeat what one has said without giving credit. I did not realize this implied a criticism.
 
Okay I see. Usually when someone is quoted, the response beneath the quote refers to it - so you can see my confusion. Thanks for clearing it up. 🙂
 
I asked my pastor about the Indult, he said it is not to be celbrated every Sunday of the year, that is not the intent of Vatican II, I really don’t know who to believe anymore
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Believe what the Pope says.
c) Moreover, respect must everywhere be shown for the feelings of all those who are attached to the Latin liturgical tradition by a wide and generous application of the directives already issued some time ago by the Apostolic See for the use of the Roman Missal according to the typical edition of 1962.[9]
  1. As this year specially dedicated to the Blessed Virgin is now drawing to a close, I wish to exhort all to join in unceasing prayer, which the vicar of Christ, through the intercession of the mother of the Church, addresses to the
Father in the very words of the Son: “That they all may be one!”

Given at Rome, at St. Peter’s, July 2, 1988, the 10th year of the pontificate.

John Paul II (Ecclesia Dei
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)

What your pastor describes is neither wide or generous.
 
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DominvsVobiscvm:
You obviously know nothing of traditional Catholicism.

An equal cannot bind an equal, and it’s ludicrous to believe that Saint Pius V meant to bind his successors to one single solitary form of the Mass. Don’t be ludicrous.

Not only that, but similar language has been used of other disciplinary measures that have been subsequently modified or revoked (e.g. legislation governing papal elections).

Third, by your logic (and I use the word loosely in your case) all Popes who revised the Missal from 1570 to 1962 have incurred the wrath of Almighty God for their changes in the Mass, including Saint Pius V, who in his own lifetime reformed the Missal even after issuing Quo Primum.

Lastly, the Missa Normativa is, theoretically at least, not a separate Rite from the Tridentine, but merely a new edition of it, albeit one more dramatically revised.

I use the phrase Missa Normativa because it’s less pejorative than Novus Ordo; in my opinion, at least.
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Anything infallible is an “equal binding an equal”. By your logic, the Assumption, Immaculate Conception, and anything a Pope issues ex Cathedra is not infallible, since an equal cannot bind an equal. He issued Quo Primum ex Cathedra, infallibly (Papal Bull). The Mass can progress (as it had in times past), as it did up until 1962 (adding St. Joseph to the Canon was unprecedented, but it was not an innovation, it could still be considered a progression), whereas the NO was invented by a “Consilium” put together to invent a completely new Mass. Anyone who thinks NO is the logical progression of the TLM does not know anything about its history. It is clearly something completely new, invented by a group of men (including 6 protestants and several masons, including the head: Bugnini).
 
Anything infallible is an “equal binding an equal”. By your logic, the Assumption, Immaculate Conception, and anything a Pope issues ex Cathedra is not infallible, since an equal cannot bind an equal.
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Discipline and dogma–there’s a difference.

Remember that infallibility means simply “free from error”; the Church possesses disciplinary infallibility insofar as she is prevented by Our Lord from ever binding the faithful to laws that are against natural or divine law.

There is absolutely no prededent for a Pope forcing a future Pope to one or another ecclesiastical law. That’s not traditional Catholicism; it’s rad-trad innovation.
The Mass can progress (as it had in times past), as it did up until 1962 (adding St. Joseph to the Canon was unprecedented, but it was not an innovation, it could still be considered a progression),
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Who gets to decide when a change is an “innovation” or a “development”? There are some radicals who believe that the 1962 Missal is Modernist, chiefly because of the addition of Saint Joseph’s name to the Canon. Who are you to say that they’re wrong, when you yourself feel free to blast the 1970 Missal, approved by the Pope of Rome?
 
I see this thread is full of circular reasoning and is going nowhere, to tell you the truth, I’m surpised it has not been closed, like the Life Teen threads. People are going to have their opinons, leave it at that, beauty is only in the eye of the beholder. I see beauty at the Tridentine Mass.
 
Tell it to the moderators and they may comply with you assessment.
 
The same thing can be said of the Missa Normativa, which in its essentials is not all that different from the Missa Tridentina.
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They are different from one another:
  1. The Mysterium Fidei are placed in different places in the Canon, that is a big one, for thousands of years the Canon has remained unchanged until Pope John XXIII inserted St. Jospeh,
    later the Mysterium Fidei was moved in a different place.
  2. The Calender has been altered and so has the lectionary
  3. 3 extra Eucharistic prayers w/ epklesis
  4. Watered down offertory prayers in the Novus Ordo compared to the Traditional Latin Mass
  5. Kyrie is shortened
What makes the Roman Rite Roman is the Roman Canon.
 
The Epiklesis was always in the Mass Traditional or NO. Its just that Orthodox don’t like the Traditional Epiklesis and they say it didn’t exist in the past.
 
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