Should the Tridentine Mass fade away?

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Dom - yes I mean Richard LOL. He is quite the guy - teaches gregorian chant at the University too.

I will tell him this weekend at Mass that you send your regards. I am glad you cleared up your post - sure had me confused there for a minute LOL
 
I’d like to bring inculturation back up. While the positive side of inculturation seems to be that a particular people can better identify with the Rite, the downside is the fracturing of the one rite into many mini-rites. I myself appreciate that, at least in theory, I should be able to go to any (Roman) Catholic Church in America and feel at home in the liturgy. And even with the suggestion of regionally inculturated Masses this dream could still be realized. But there are many impediments. For one, today’s world is so mobile that cultures are very intermixed. Even with everyone using the Tridentine rite, America’s immigrants managed to maintain ethnic segregation (with each new immigrant group building the steeple of their Catholic Church just a little higher than the one just down the block). That doesn’t exactly promote Christian unity, and just imagine how the situation could have devolved if they were all allowed to use slightly different liturgies. Another problem is that with an inculturation system for the Roman rite, we may wind up without a culturally neutral rite to serve at the intersection of cultures.

Your mention of the solemnity of papal Masses is what generated my thoughts on the topic because when I attended the beatification of Mother Theresa I found myself totally thrown by the Indian women in saris dancing around in front of the Eucharist. My confusion was mirrored on my friends’ faces, especially the non-Catholics who were even more anxious for an explanation. This was not neutral ground. I was definitely aware that I was an outsider at a Mass that was not really mine. The Tridentine rite was much more neutral. No one is a native Latin speaker. The culture from which it sprang is long gone. While I appreciate the Eastern rites, I wonder if it is a good thing to have the whole Church splintered into a one culture-one rite ratio.
 
As usual, you bring up some good points Andreas and while I could not have explained it this well, I think some of those thoughts have been in my mind a while now.

It is also one of the things I forget to mention when people ask why I prefer the Tridentine Mass. The word is “consistency”. It was and is the same in New York and Colorado, in Candada and as in any country in the world where it is celebrated. It does not have different norms from Diocese to Diocese and Country to Country

If it were still the normative, I doubt there would be nearly as much activity on the Liturgy forum.

OTOH if it were not for Vatican II, there might not even be the concept of Catholic forums. Unless memory fails me (and it very well could at my age), people were not encouraged to question or discuss the “why’s” of Catholicism, just to obey it. This worked well but Vatican II felt we could not reach our full spiritual potential and maturity unless they changed rules oriented Catholicism to focus on the human person rather on dogmatic truths about the divine order.

I can agree that we should not “just” follow the rules but become the persons God wants us to be but in the name of creative spirituality and the spirit of Vatican II, I think we may have lost (evidenced by a lot of posts here) what we long for and that is consistent good Shepherding. I believe creative spirituality evolved to creative liturgy, creative theology and dissent rather than unity.

Perhaps we were not ready to be “cut loose” yet or perhaps given a wider road to travel we just got lost. Alice von Hildebrand recently wrote an article called, “The Second Vatican Council: Why Pope John XXIII Would Weep”.

It is said that on his death bed Pope John XXIII said, “Silvio, Silvio, my pontificate has been a failure. All the things I wanted to accomplish have not been done; what I did not want to take place is being realized.” Alice feels this means that he knew his message had been distorted and misunderstood.

I better end this before I drift too far off topic - 😉
 
Very nicely said you two. 🙂 Vatican II had many good intentions, it is a pity that some things were lost, but I see them slowly returning.
 
Pslam45:9:

I never said there was anything wrong with your preference, an I never meant to imply as much. I’m just saying that it’s foolish to believe, as many seem to do, that the Missal of 1962 is here to stay. It isn’t. The Roman rite is constantly evolving, and will continue to do so until the end of time. Do you honestly believe that all inspired development ceased in the year 1962, and the liturgy has now reached its external perfection?

Also, the prefrences you named are not peculiar to the Tridentine rite, but can also be done in the new (for example, singing the whole Mass).

Regarding inculturation:

Keep in mind that there’s nothing knew about this. The Council of Trent, for example, explicitly allowed for it with regard to marriage ceremonies.

Also, the history of the Jesuit missions is filled with examples of inculturation into the Mass. Heck, the Mass itself is, in large part, a mixture of Jewish ceremony with rites and trappings inculturated from Roman civil ceremony.

I think Mother Theresa’s beatification is an excellent example of such inculturation. The Mass was still the Roman Mass, except for those dances during the Offertory and/or consecration. From the pictures I’ve seen of this Mass, it was done very reverently; the dancers were facing the altar and the Sacrament, not the people, as those abominable liturgical ballet dancers do in this country.

I’m sorry you felt the way you did, but I certainly didn’t.

Also keep in mind that a good number of Blessed Theresa’s devotees are from India or are of Indian descent.

But yes, your concerns about it deviating into many “sub-rites” is a legitimate one. And it’s gotten way out of hand. In most of the Papal Masses, however, I’m able to discern the Roman core within all the cultural trappings, and so am not scandalized by them.

Now, regarding the Masses at Clear Creek:

They differ from the 1962 Missal in many significant ways, and resemble the 1965 one:
  1. All the conventual Masses are Solemn High, even though most of the time they do not use Deacons or Subdeacons! For example, the Epistle will be chanted by one of the monks, wearning nothing but his habit. And the Epistle and Gospel are sung facing the people!
  2. In the 1962 Missal, the priest *says * all the Ordinaries of the Mass (i.e. Kryie, Gloria, Credo, Sanctus, Agnus Dei) while the congregation is singing them. This also went for the Introit, Offertory, and Communion chant. At Clear Creek, the priest just lets the choir sing these (though he still intones the Gloria and Credo).
  3. At Clear Creek, they incense around the entire free-standing altar. At every other Tridentine Mass I’ve been to and seen, even when the altar is free-standing, the priest will only incense the front, as if he were imagining it was still really attached to a wall!
  4. The Secret isn’t said secretly. It’s sung!
  5. The priest sings the entire doxology of the Roman Canon, not just the Per omina saecular saeculorum. Further, he does the minor elevation the modern way: the Body on the paten in one hand, the chalice in the other, making it more visibly sacrificial.
  6. The entire Our Father is sung by priest and congregation!
7)The final Blessing (“Benedicat vos omnipotens Deus . . .”) is sung, not done silently.
  1. The Last Gospel is ommitted. (I say, good riddance! I always thought this destroyed the symmetry of the liturgy.)
  2. Also, they have an optional rite of concelebration. I myself was there when the concelebrated the Holy Thursday Mass of the Lord’s Supper, when each priest took turns chanting different parts of the Canon! I myself wasn’t too crazy about it though . . .
Pretty cool, huh?
 
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DominvsVobiscvm:
Also, the prefrences you named are not peculiar to the Tridentine rite, but can also be done in the new (for example, singing the whole Mass).
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I have been aware of all of these things you have mentioned. I have been to a church where the Choir sings in Latin, the priest celebrates in English, faces people, and communion is distributed standing. I have been to a church where there is a contemporary choir singing glory and praise and communion is recieved kneeling at the altar rail. EWTN’s beautiful mass has many parts of it celebrated in Latin with the Choir singing Gregorian Chorale, very reverent; more churches should be like this. I have attended a Charismatic mass where they used incense. Yes, I know these things have not disappeared. But the only place where I see all of these things together is at the Tridentine High Mass. I have not taken any offense, but what I find fulfilling is at the Tridentine High mass.
 
Inow what you mean, Psaml45; I’m just saying that all those things, all together, can be found in a single celebration of the Novus Ordo.

Ever been to Saint John Cantius, in Chicago?
 
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DominvsVobiscvm:
Inow what you mean, Psaml45; I’m just saying that all those things, all together, can be found in a single celebration of the Novus Ordo.

Ever been to Saint John Cantius, in Chicago?
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You make a good point.
However…how many places like St. John Cantius are in the USA and why is there nothing but chaos and loss of faith elsewhere.

Actually.St.John Cantius has the Tridenting and Latin Novus Ordo. I think that’s the model. Both together. Both resembling each other in every parish in the USA.
 
This article in the Free Press was presented in our Symbol and Ritual class in our deacon formation program. The article makes it sound like the pastor wants the tridentine mass for the wrong reasons (Boost attendance, etc). What do you think?
 
Here’s an example, I like to watch movies, and one of my favorite movies is, “Laura” staring Clifton Webb and Gene Tiereny. It was made in 1944 and it is a mystery movie; but it is more specifically classified as “Film-Noir”. Now Film-Noir movies are no longer made, they ended with the 40s. But just because these movies are no longer produced and popular does not mean that a person like me cannot have access to them, watch these films, and enjoy them. I see films of this time period and genre sold in the stores and played on T.V. thanks to the Turner Classic Movie Station. Are all Film-Noir movies the same? No, each has its own unique plot and cast of characters, but they all share common elements and characteristics. Now because Film-Noir movies are not made anymore does that also mean mystery movies are also no longer made? No, this specific genre of mystery films is no longer made. Does it mean that there aren’t any good modern mystery movies? No, but these movies are not Film-Noir, they do not have the plot and style typical of a Film-Noir. Are there movies today that are similar to Film-Noir? Yes. Are they Film-Noir? No, they are missing some elements that would classify them as Film-Noir. Do some people prefer Film-Noir to modern mystery films? Yes. Can these people legally watch these movies? Yes. Will these movies be forgotten; I don’t think so, especially with the Turner Classic Movies channel showing them. (Continued on next page)
 
With that said is the Missal of 1962 a Liturgy? Yes. Is the present missal a Liturgy? Yes. Is what the Byzantines and Maronites celebrate also a liturgy? Yes. Are the Present and Tridentine Missals both a Latin Rite Mass? Yes. Can the Present Mass be similar to the Tridentine Mass? Yes, as you have written, it can be very similar. But is the Present Latin Rite Mass a Tridentine Latin Rite Mass? No. Why is this? The current liturgy is missing some elements in the celebration that would cause it to be classified as a Tridentine Mass? Does this mean that the current missal is wrong and inspired development ceased, meaning new liturgical styles will not develop after 1962? No. Well then what does this mean? Some people like the Tridentine Mass and some people like the Present Mass. Is the 1962 missal the same as the one that Trent made? No, there were minor reforms throughout the centuries. So then how can it be called a Tridentine Mass if it’s not the original one? Just as all Film-Noir movies shared a common plot that were different from other mystery films and causing them to be classified as Film-Noir, The Mass throughout those centuries had minor changes that were not too noticeable, leaving it under the same classification and at the same time distinguishing it from the Divine Liturgies of the East. Even within the Byzantine Rite there are two Liturgies, the Liturgies of St. John Chrysostom and St. Basil, both are not exactly the same although they are similar. Can people legally attend a Tridentine Mass? Yes, the Pope said so, as long as it is celebrated with permission. Is the Tridentine Mass going to be around longer? Well Film-Noir is still being watched 60 years later and the 1962 missal is still being celebrated 40 years later. Will people forget the Tridentine Mass? No, watch the Godfather or Road to Perdition; Hollywood will keep it alive. I am sure the Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter will be around for a long time. Did the Church modernize? No, it still preaches the same message that it always had preached. I would be interested in attending the Church you mentioned if I ever go to Chicago, I am sure I will enjoy it, as I had said from the beginning, I am not against the Current Liturgy.
 
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Agomemnon:
Actually.St.John Cantius has the Tridenting and Latin Novus Ordo. I think that’s the model. Both together. Both resembling each other in every parish in the USA.
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I think so too, but I get reprimanded because of my ideas by other Catholics. When I see EWTN’s mass, then I see what Vatican II was supposed to do.
 
DominvsVobiscvum,

Dominvs vobiscvum! Sorry, had to play on the name at least once. Anyway, I’m sorry if I gave off the impression of having been scandalized by the liturgical dancers at Mother Theresa’s beatification. I was definitely confused. But I told my friends that if the pope let it in, it must be legit. The statement that I felt out of place holds true, though, even if the Roman core of the Mass was evident. I think the main impetus for that feeling was the fact that I expected a “normal” Mass (aside from myriad and varying abuses, the Mass in Austria where I studied last year could be called the same as America) but instead was met with Mass a la India, which contained elements so foreign to my culture that I had never heard of or even imagined them. Surprise will always elicit a stronger reaction.
 
Thanks - this priest is really “into it”. Well they have waited a long time in Detroit and so deserve to have it this way.
 
Guy said:
www.freep.com/news/religion/cath3_20040803.htm
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Do I think their doing this all for the wrong reasons?

You bet!

However I personally believe the reason for the new found interest in the Tridentine Mass is not so innocent either.

Detroit is a hot bed of Traditional Catholics - there are several “sede vacantist” groups there as well as SSPX. St. Mary’s in Wayne Mich. is a huge Catholic Church and across the street sits a little “sede vacantist” parish that is bursting at the seams, 3 Masses on Sunday, a school with nuns and all - and it would appear the money just keeps pouring in.

I do not believe the diocese wanted to bring back The Tridentine Mass, I believe they were forced to bring it back. The people want the Tridentine Mass and if The Catholic Church doesn’t supply it, they will go elsewhere to find it.

I am amused at the fact the article states that The Mass is kept around for the older people but they are afraid that it is the younger people who are following it. First off, I question why they are afraid of the Tridentine Mass. And second off, if that is frightening then they should be afraid because the Tridentine Masses are full of young people. - I attend one and the young people way out number the older people!
 
I did not view it as doing it for “all the wrong reasons” but rather than wanting it to be as authentic historically as it could be done as well as providing the opportunity for those who wish to attend a Tridentine Mass.

I think the important thing is that they are allowing it and that this priest is really excited about doing it. For those of you who are longing for an Indult Mass, you may find even when granted that finding a priest to celebrate it is not all that easy.
 
Back in school one of the most difficult concepts to grasp was the difference between Roman and English law. Law tends to follow custom under Roman law while the opposite is true under English law. I think its clear that the Tridentine returning to St. Josephat is a respone to the growth of the masses occuring in the area but outside the control of the archdiocese, but that’s the way the church has always been. In this case church law is broken by the SSPX, SSPV, CMRI, and others and the Archdiocese reacts, I don’t see this reaction as being wrong, or for the wrong reasons, just the way its always been.
 
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