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deogratias
Guest
They should realize that a condition of allowing the Indult Mass is that they accept the validity of the NOM and the teachings of Vatican II. So one might say it is they who are heretical.
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pnewton
Guest
Dominusvobiscum:
It is good to be reminded that most traditional Catholics are balanced, faithful and charitable. Thank you. I, too, would give you points if I could!
Mandi:
I do not see the relevance of what other sects and denominations are doing. The Church has never minded standing alone.
It is good to be reminded that most traditional Catholics are balanced, faithful and charitable. Thank you. I, too, would give you points if I could!
Mandi:
I do not see the relevance of what other sects and denominations are doing. The Church has never minded standing alone.
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frdave20
Guest
Chris in Mich:
My comment was referring to the liberal position taken when considering the TLM will fade away because only older people attend. I detected a note of cynicism toward the TLM. (i could have been reading too much in the article, but in any event, that was my feeling).
When discerning what religious order to enter, I spoke to my priest and he told me to stay away from the Jesuits – probably because I am really conservative and orthodox.
I was merely drawing a connection between the jesuits – who, at least in this country, are not the resounding voice of Church orthodoxy that they once were. my evidence? look at the colleges that are still Jesuit-run. Then look at those colleges that are run by Jesuits but no longer consider themselves “Catholic” institutions.
My comment was referring to the liberal position taken when considering the TLM will fade away because only older people attend. I detected a note of cynicism toward the TLM. (i could have been reading too much in the article, but in any event, that was my feeling).
When discerning what religious order to enter, I spoke to my priest and he told me to stay away from the Jesuits – probably because I am really conservative and orthodox.
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sandyeggo
Guest
Chris in Mich:
The Tridentine Mass is beautiful, holy, reverent, and the perfect example of vertical worship of God instead of the communal horizontal worship which is unfortunately so prevalent these days.
I’ve only attended a half-dozen times, but I would like to attend more often. No way should it fade away - but the aging liberals can fade away any time. I hope we will eventually see a universal indult so this Mass, the “most beautiful thing this side of Heaven” can once again flourish.
There are many young people attending, as they realize what a rich liturgical tradition they have missed out on.
Don’t worry. Ignore what comes from the arch-liberal America Magazine.
The Tridentine Mass is beautiful, holy, reverent, and the perfect example of vertical worship of God instead of the communal horizontal worship which is unfortunately so prevalent these days.
I’ve only attended a half-dozen times, but I would like to attend more often. No way should it fade away - but the aging liberals can fade away any time. I hope we will eventually see a universal indult so this Mass, the “most beautiful thing this side of Heaven” can once again flourish.
There are many young people attending, as they realize what a rich liturgical tradition they have missed out on.
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Chris_in_Mich
Guest
Now I have to wonder why he would be quoted for an article like this, this is a local story after all. It seems I rarely read an article in any of the Detroit papers regarding anything Catholic without a liberal comment, yet conservative or traditional views are usually left out or viewed as the cause of the problems.
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sandyeggo
Guest
Chris in Mich:
It shouldn’t come as much of a surprise when the liberal secular press goes to the liberal Catholic press for comment.
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Panis_Angelicas
Guest
Does what you “truly think” of others make it so?
I truly do “resent the implication” that TLMers are a bunch of fanatics who make extremist claims such as that the NO is heretical or that all was perfect in a Happy Days era before Vatican II.
In fact, none of them here have said that. None of them have said anything remotely like that.
I’m just sad to read this stereotyping of our traditional Catholic brothers and sisters on this forum.
I’m a NO worshipper, but I guess y’all can classify me as a TLM Sympathyzer. :ehh:
Pax Christi. <><
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Psalm45_9
Guest
I think a better question for those who despise the TLM is: If the mass never changes, then why is there such a gripe about a divine liturgy that has been around for over 400 years or more??? Note: I am not against the modern mass in the vernecular languages, but I am concerned about preserving our roots. The TLM for centuries identified Catholics from those who wanted to destroy the Church. As a Catholic youth, I always felt there was something missing in the modern Mass. I went to a Tridentine High Mass and found what I was missing. I can better visulaize Calvary at the TLM then at the modern Mass, thanks to the Gregorian Chorale and the reverence.
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DominvsVobiscvm
Guest
The *Missa Normativa * can also be celebrated with reverence and Gregorian chant. The reason something was “missing” while you were growing up is that Mass was not being celebrated as it should have been.
And that’s the real problem with the Missa Normativa. Not that it’s intrinsically irreverent, but it’s got so many options in it, that you can’t ever be sure that a given Mass of this rite will be reverent.
Too many options, too much room for abuses.
When celebrated reverently, though (cf. EWTN, the vast majority of Papal Masses, the Society of Saint John Cantius, Magdalen College, etc.) it’s not lacking in any way.
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deogratias
Guest
I concur with your assessment DV.
Almost since the Normative Missae was instituted in 1970 there has been a movement to reform the liturgy with little or no success it seems.
Do you envision such a time that there will be less leeway for inculturation and local customs and Bishops exceptions, etc. etc. and that the Mass will indeed be celebrated as one sees on EWTN or at least without the plethora of abuses and tinkernins one sees today?
The irony of this all was that the changes were made to bring people back to the Church and now it is driving many away or at least to the Tridentine or Eastern Rites because of the abuses.
Almost since the Normative Missae was instituted in 1970 there has been a movement to reform the liturgy with little or no success it seems.
Do you envision such a time that there will be less leeway for inculturation and local customs and Bishops exceptions, etc. etc. and that the Mass will indeed be celebrated as one sees on EWTN or at least without the plethora of abuses and tinkernins one sees today?
The irony of this all was that the changes were made to bring people back to the Church and now it is driving many away or at least to the Tridentine or Eastern Rites because of the abuses.
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Psalm45_9
Guest
I am not talking about abuses, and yes a Latin Missa Normativa can be very nice. But the reverence I am referring to is the continual genuflections, and kneeling through the majority of the Mass and the stricking of the breasts. And the part I enjoy the most, is the consecration followed by the priest kneeling and then raising the Host and Chalice with the aid of the altar boys. I can see Jesus’ cross being raised at that moment. Psalm 42 is not included in Missa Normativa is because there is no climbing up the stairs to the altar of God, altars today do not have stairs in front of them, if the priest were to climb these stairs then his back would be to the people. I attend the modern Mass every Sunday and I am satisfied with it, luckily there have been no abuses at my parish. But I just get so much more out of Tridentine High Mass, I leave lightheaded, I feel like I left Earth and I am at the Gate of Heaven looking in. This is not a matter of abuses, it is of preference; some people prefer cars, some like jeeps, and still others like trucks. Either way, they still perform the same function. All of them are legal vehicles although they are built for different terrains.
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DominvsVobiscvm
Guest
All of which can be found in the 1970 Missal.
- The Novus Ordo can be said facing the altar.
- Not all “Tridentine altars” had steps.
I feel miuch the same way you do, but isn’t this the same thing that criticize Modernists and Charismatics for? An exagerrated emotionalism?
It’s one thing to say that I prefer the Tridentine rite, another to say that because of this preference it must be bronzed and never subject to development, even when this development causes some slight discomfort (as change always does; spiritual writers know this, as do those who have ever embarked upon a religious vocation).
One of the reasons Trent was convoked was to put an end to all these variations of rite within the Latin Church. There were exceptions, but they were just that, exceptions.
Vatican II did not intend to create a new Rite, but to lawfully develop the existing one. This is clear from Sancrosanctum Concilium and Paul VI’s various speeches and writings after the Council and the promulgation of the New Missal.
Do you honestly believe that the liturgy had a contunual and lawful development up until 1962, and that after this year the Tridentine Missal is never to be reformed, but kept as a separate Rite from the normative Rite?
Of course not. There will have to be a reform of the reform, and this will be, I hope, more in keeping with legitimate development, something more organic.
Yes, I do; otherwise the gates of Hell have prevailed!
I don’t mind inculturation, (for example, see my thread on the Missa Luba), but there’s a proper and improper way for this to be done. It’s one thing, for example, to have a single inculturated Roman Mass for India or the Congo, another what we have here in the U.S.: every single parish celebrating Mass differently in order to inculturate it to each city. It’s ludicrous!
Too much of a good thing . . . it a bad thing.
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deogratias
Guest
I would agree that this broad application inculturation gives way to the USSBC requesting so many acceptions for the U.S. (as in what sacred vessels can be used in the U.S. and their reasons why).
Between 1965 and 1970 there was another Missal. This was not radically different from the 1962 Missal and allowed for some parts of the Mass in the vernacular. The rest of it was very much the same as the 1962 Missal with the exception of the Last Gospel and the Leontine Prayers being omitted. It convered all the objections to the Tridentine Mass at that time but was not at all like the normative Mass today. I believe that the Church Council of Vatican II envisioned the changs to be much like that in the 1965 Missal and I regret they did not just stick with that.
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Catholic_Eagle
Guest
The 1965 Missal was written as an experimental rite. It wasn’t meant as a rite to exist for along time. It was a stepping stone to the New Mass from the the Traditional Latin Mass. It was temporary. Traditional Latin Mass is the solution not an experimental rite suchas the 1965 Missal.
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deogratias
Guest
I refer you to my answer to you in another thread. I don’t know why you were suspended but nothing seems to have changed in the tenor of your posts that constantly criticize the post Vartican II. Mass
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DominvsVobiscvm
Guest
Yes, yes, yes!!!
The Benedictine Abbey of Fontgombault (part of the orthodox Congregation of Solesmes), of which Our Lady of the Annunciation of Clear Creek Monastery (in Hulbert, OK) is a daughterhouse, uses the Tridentine Mass with Benedictine variations, which in practice means that they use something strongly resembling the 1965 Missal.
I found this rite to be very much in accord with the spirit of Vatican II, and VERY traditional and beautiful.
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deogratias
Guest
I wasn’t sure if you were in agreement with Catholic Eagle on this - solution to what? Are you and he both saying that the NOM should be done away with and total return to TLM. I doubt that will ever happen. I hope that there will be greater availability of the TLM however.
How wonderful that you got to go to Clear Creek - I have longed to do just that. Our TLM Choir Director has gone several times and I hear their Schola is fantastic. Their web site says
So it appears it is with the 1962 Missal and not the 1965. Perhaps it is the incorporation of Divine office that makes it seem different.
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DominvsVobiscvm
Guest
Oh man! What a typo! I meant to quote these words of yours:
Between 1965 and 1970 there was another Missal. This was not radically different from the 1962 Missal and allowed for some parts of the Mass in the vernacular. The rest of it was very much the same as the 1962 Missal with the exception of the Last Gospel and the Leontine Prayers being omitted. It convered all the objections to the Tridentine Mass at that time but was not at all like the normative Mass today. I believe that the Church Council of Vatican II envisioned the changs to be much like that in the 1965 Missal and I regret they did not just stick with that.
Are you talking about Richard? You from Arizona? I met the guy; he’s pretty cool. He was there just this Holy Week, when I was. Tell him Eric Giunta (the former Cantian postulant) said hi!
Believe me, although they don’t call it “the 1965 Missal” that’s exactly what it amounts to.
Clear Creek’s Mass is actually different from the 1962 Missal in many ways; I’ll list these later.
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Psalm45_9
Guest
I thought I made it clear, but I guess not enough. I said the Tridentine Mass is a preference, I did not say that I was against the modern liturgy of the mass, nor the charismatic movement. I said that I get more spiritual fulfillment from the Tridentine High Mass, just like how others get it from the Charismatic movement. If the Charismatic movement brings people closer to Christ, then that’s great. However, I feel closer to Christ at the Tridentine High Mass, it’s my preference. Did I say anywhere that the Charismatic movement was wrong? No, I said it is not my preference. Did I say anywhere that Tridentine Mass is the only mass that should be celebrated? No. I feel Christ the strongest at the Tridentine High Mass on my knees before the altar. Not by clapping hands and speaking in tongues, I am sure however other people do feel him that way, and I am OK with it. If we can fulfill our Sunday obligation by attending the Liturgies of St. John Chrysostom, St. Basil, and St. Mark; if we can be granted an Indulgence by attending the Franciscan Liturgical Solemnity of Our Lady Queen of the Angles, if the Bishops are OK with Charismatic masses, then why are we denied in so many dioceses to receive Christ in the Liturgy of the Tridentine Mass? The Better question is why do so many Catholics want to see the Tridentine Mass be forgotten? Why are there so many anti-Latin Mass Catholics?
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Psalm45_9
Guest
“I can better visualize Calvary at the TLM then at the modern Mass, thanks to the Gregorian Chorale and the reverence.”
“The Missa Normativa can also be celebrated with reverence and Gregorian chant. The reason something was “missing” while you were growing up is that Mass was not being celebrated as it should have been.”
No, my parish always celebrated mass correctly. But the choir has never sung throughout the majority of the Mass, like in a Tridentine High Mass. And no my parents never forced me to go to church, my parents never went to church. So do not try to say my elders influenced me.
“I am not talking about abuses, and yes a Latin Missa Normativa can be very nice. But the reverence I am referring to is the continual genuflections, and kneeling through the majority of the Mass and the striking of the breasts”.
“All of which can be found in the 1970 Missal.”
If all of these are found in the in the Missals of 1962 and 1970, then why is there a problem if my preference is 1962? If they’re the same there should be no problem. The majority of kneeling was replaced with standing and I prefer the kneeling of the 1962 missal.
“Psalm 42 is not included in Missa Normativa is because there is no climbing up the stairs to the altar of God, altars today do not have stairs in front of them, if the priest were to climb these stairs then his back would be to the people.”
“1) The Novus Ordo can be said facing the altar.”
If the Novous Ordo can be said facing the altar and the Tridentine Mass is said facing the altar, then why is there a problem if my preference is the Tridentine Mass? And why then was Psalm 42 removed?
“2) Not all “Tridentine altars” had steps.”
My mistake
“I feel miuch the same way you do, but isn’t this the same thing that criticize Modernists and Charismatics for? An exagerrated emotionalism?”
**
Unlike Charismatics, I do not hold my hands in the air and start shouting in tongues. If I have the same emotional feelings as a Charismatic, then why is there a problem if my preference is to clasp my hands, kneel and bow my head, because the Lord of Glory is on the Altar? If people feel Christ the Charismatic way, that is fine, but have trouble focusing on Christ with all that excitement going on around me, which is why the Charismatic movement is not my preference. If I am criticizing it is only because I was criticized.
“It’s one thing to say that I prefer the Tridentine rite, another to say that because of this preference it must be bronzed and never subject to development, even when this development causes some slight discomfort (as change always does; spiritual writers know this, as do those who have ever embarked upon a religious vocation).”
If the Pope said it’s all right to celebrate a Tridentine Mass presently, then why is there a problem if I prefer the Tridentine? The Pope is offering it licitly, I can go, and I’m there! The Pope said it’s OK, just like the Charismatic movement.
“The Missa Normativa can also be celebrated with reverence and Gregorian chant. The reason something was “missing” while you were growing up is that Mass was not being celebrated as it should have been.”
No, my parish always celebrated mass correctly. But the choir has never sung throughout the majority of the Mass, like in a Tridentine High Mass. And no my parents never forced me to go to church, my parents never went to church. So do not try to say my elders influenced me.
“I am not talking about abuses, and yes a Latin Missa Normativa can be very nice. But the reverence I am referring to is the continual genuflections, and kneeling through the majority of the Mass and the striking of the breasts”.
“All of which can be found in the 1970 Missal.”
If all of these are found in the in the Missals of 1962 and 1970, then why is there a problem if my preference is 1962? If they’re the same there should be no problem. The majority of kneeling was replaced with standing and I prefer the kneeling of the 1962 missal.
“Psalm 42 is not included in Missa Normativa is because there is no climbing up the stairs to the altar of God, altars today do not have stairs in front of them, if the priest were to climb these stairs then his back would be to the people.”
“1) The Novus Ordo can be said facing the altar.”
If the Novous Ordo can be said facing the altar and the Tridentine Mass is said facing the altar, then why is there a problem if my preference is the Tridentine Mass? And why then was Psalm 42 removed?
“2) Not all “Tridentine altars” had steps.”
My mistake
“I feel miuch the same way you do, but isn’t this the same thing that criticize Modernists and Charismatics for? An exagerrated emotionalism?”
**
Unlike Charismatics, I do not hold my hands in the air and start shouting in tongues. If I have the same emotional feelings as a Charismatic, then why is there a problem if my preference is to clasp my hands, kneel and bow my head, because the Lord of Glory is on the Altar? If people feel Christ the Charismatic way, that is fine, but have trouble focusing on Christ with all that excitement going on around me, which is why the Charismatic movement is not my preference. If I am criticizing it is only because I was criticized.
“It’s one thing to say that I prefer the Tridentine rite, another to say that because of this preference it must be bronzed and never subject to development, even when this development causes some slight discomfort (as change always does; spiritual writers know this, as do those who have ever embarked upon a religious vocation).”
If the Pope said it’s all right to celebrate a Tridentine Mass presently, then why is there a problem if I prefer the Tridentine? The Pope is offering it licitly, I can go, and I’m there! The Pope said it’s OK, just like the Charismatic movement.
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