Should we continue to go to Counseling?

[Peter_J]

Why did this leave the Non-Catholic Forum? The spouse is not Catholic and she too is seeking help in this marriage. Very few non-Catholics will see this post here and be able to offer advice for this wife. She is our Christian sister too.

God Bless!

In my opinion, it would be better if this thread were closed completely.

M0nkey and Lil_Cat, you really ought to be talking about all this with a clergyman, a couselor … somebody in “real life”. I know it’s extremely easy to get lots of opinions on the internet, but in a case like this that’s really not a good idea.

Consider this, M0nkey: would you write a letter-to-the-editor of your local newspaper with statements like “My wife’s only intention in going to Church with me is to be a decoy, to question everything I do there, and to mock me.” Probably not. The internet has a way of turning us all into different people.

 

[onmyknees]

Actually, getting married by the justice of the peace doesn’t make a marriage invalid for two baptized persons.

A Catholic is obliged to follow church law for a valid marriage which is that it must be witnessed by a priest (or deacon).

Yet the church might still recognize your marriage as valid if you weren’t raised Catholic and were not aware of this law. This would be something to discuss with a priest.

In any case, you both married in good faith intending to stay together for better or worse. You weren’t intending to evade the church’s law.

 

[onmyknees]

The Catholic Church does not tell two non-Catholics whether their marriage is valid or not. A civil marriage is a valid marriage is this country.

 

[moosears]

Unfortunately, we did not even do that. We got married at the justice of the peace.

(Oh and I just got told that was my idea.)

So you had a civil marriage. Then a con validation should be all that is necessary, I think. It might be a good idea to ask Fr. Serpa to be sure, unless you have already discussed this with your priest.

 

[kage_ar]

Wow!

First, welcome to both of you.

As a baptized Catholic, our OP is bound by the Catholic laws on marriage. Look at it this way, the Catholic is a citizen of both the country in which they live AND the Catholic Church. In order for the marriage to be recognized by the Catholic Church, a Catholic has to marry according to the Church laws.

Those laws are that a Catholic must marry in a Catholic Church OR get a dispensation (permission) from the Bishop to marry somewhere else.

Should the Catholic in question have fallen out of practice, they are still a Catholic and bound by the laws of the Church. The only way in today’s world for someone to no longer be bound by those laws is to formally defect (one can google formal defection from the Catholic Church and find how one does that). The high points are for this Catholic to have defected and not be bound by the marriage laws, they would have had to write a letter to the Bishop and the Bishop has to acknowledge it. I really doubt that the OP went to that effort…

So, the OP is a Catholic, he attempted a marriage outside of the Church. In order to have a valid marriage in the eyes of God, the OP will need to be married in the Church (called convalidation). It is not required to be a full blow huge wedding, it is preparation and a simple ceremony.

Whew.

All that being said, it seems that this couple needs some wise counsel.

For the OP’s legal wife, perhaps you could get the DVD “Common Ground” from the website www.catholicprotestant.com this might assist you in learning what we have in common with Protestants. Another idea is to attend the RCIA classes at a local Parish. Attending RCIA does not mean you promise to convert, it is simply a place to learn more and ask questions.

Lastly, if you do convalidate, you are heading down a hard road. You will need every single drop of grace to make your marriage work.

The book by Fulton Sheen, “Three To Get Married” will give you an idea of what a Sacramental marriage is - and take it from me, it is something that will help you get to heaven.

Prayers.

 

[Claire_from_DE]

The Catholic Church does not tell two non-Catholics whether their marriage is valid or not. A civil marriage is a valid marriage is this country.

It will if one of them asks to have the marriage examined. All marriages by two non-Catholics are presumed to be valid whether in a church or by a justice of the peace.

 

[PaulDupre]

I personally don’t think we’ll get a divorce, as I don’t believe in divorce. Separation posibly, specially now that I’m living in sin.

Where do you get the notion that you are living in sin? In the eyes of the Catholic Church you are lawfully married and therefore not living in sin.

Whether your marriage is valid in the eyes of the Church is an entirely different matter and has nothing to do with “living in sin”.

Paul

 

[onmyknees]

Where do you get the notion that you are living in sin? In the eyes of the Catholic Church you are lawfully married and therefore not living in sin.

Whether your marriage is valid in the eyes of the Church is an entirely different matter and has nothing to do with “living in sin”.

Paul

In the eyes of the Church he is living in sin. If he is now a baptized practicing Catholic, he is not married in the eyes of God which is in the Catholic Church and sacramental. So he is living in sin until
his marriage is convalidated in the Church.

 

[Augustine]

Yes you should and you should also ask your “spiritual counselor” to hear both sides and provide you both counsel.

An online forum is the worst place to discuss such a delicate matter, as both of you have hopefully noticed.

 

[kell0618]

Me and wife have been married for a little more than a year. Just recently (about two months ago), we hit a pretty hard bump on the road and I think our religious differences are really starting to show it’s thorns. I was Baptized Catholic and she Protestant (Fundamentalist). We have been going to Counseling for the past month or so, and I see nothing’s changed in our marriage. I constantly pray for her conversion but it seems that all I get is being called a fanatic for having deep convictions in the Faith. Recently, I found out I’m not supposed to be taking the Eucharist, given that we did not have a Catholic wedding. So I called the Parish to attend a marriage class for co-validation and now she claims I’m forcing her to conversion. The other day, I attended the Holy Day of Obligation of the Assention of Our Lady, and I got acussed of worshiping Mary. It’s getting to the point where I can’t even talk freely about the Church as she immediately calls me a fanatic and a blind follower of the Pope. It seems to me we may have rushed into this marriage, without mitigating for our spiritual differences. We are already aware that the problem lies in our differences but for some reason we seem to always butt heads, without treating each other with respect first. I’m beggning to think that perhaps counseling is not the best answer for these sorts of issues, if anyone has any (name removed by moderator)ut on this please, please let me know.

We already tried talking to a Priest about this and got no response. I was hoping if we did take this marriage class, we could get to talk to a Priest and he may guide us further, but it looks like I’ll be showing up by myself for that as she won’t come.

Hi Monkey,

You are both in my prayers.

Take it from a lady who has been married for 16 years, an online forum is not the best place to vent/discuss/argue/complain about your marriage. The more you keep this between the two of you, God and whomever is helping you in your counseling sessions, the better. If you continue the back and forth on this topic, I sense a category 5 hurricane in your near future.

Just my two cents, albeit unsolicited.

Kelly

 

[whatevergirl]

If the counseling is helping, continue with it. If you’re not getting anywhere, then I’d cease it. I also will say, that counseling only works if you’re willing to both make concessions, and compromises, and try to work out your differences. Unfortunately, the differences that are here, are religious, and that can take a lot of time to find common ground.

As a Catholic, I personally wouldn’t want anyone or anything to keep me from receiving the Eucharist. My dh and I were married outside the Catholic Church, and couldn’t receive communion for a short time, but we had our marriage blessed, and it was a truly enligthening time for us.

To lil cat–I didn’t not read a few pages, so forgive me if you have answered this…would you not be willing to have the marriage blessed at least, by a priest? This at least, would allow your husband to follow his responsibilities as a devout Catholic…just curious if you’ve considered it?

 

[M0nkey]

Thank you all for your responses. I think I’ve got a somewhat clear idea on how to proceed now. It’s just a matter of time.

Consider this, M0nkey: would you write a letter-to-the-editor of your local newspaper with statements like “My wife’s only intention in going to Church with me is to be a decoy, to question everything I do there, and to mock me.” Probably not. The internet has a way of turning us all into different people.

This is what drove me to start this thread, because enough is enough. I’m fed up with being ridiculed for what I believe. And since counseling doesn’t work, and no priest was currently available, the CAF was the only place I could get some answers. Even if it means eating the scraps that fall off the table. Currently I have no one that I can share my Catholic faith with, and talk about spiritual problems.

Yes you should and you should also ask your “spiritual counselor” to hear both sides and provide you both counsel.

Unfortunately, he won’t do marriage counseling. This is intended to be private one-on-one Spiritual Direction.

If the counseling is helping, continue with it. If you’re not getting anywhere, then I’d cease it.

This is exactly where I’m at right now. We’ve been going to counseling and it’s not really helping. I feel there are much bigger forces at work here. Which is what brought me to this thread to ask for help.

The more you keep this between the two of you, God and whomever is helping you in your counseling sessions, the better. If you continue the back and forth on this topic, I sense a category 5 hurricane in your near future.

Unfortunately I’m dealing with a person that is not sensible enough to understand where I’m coming from (she’s not Catholic). Hence, the hurricane is far from being here, lots of things need rearranging.

Again, thank you all for what (name removed by moderator)ut you have given me. It’s good to be able to share this with fellow Catholics and get some (name removed by moderator)ut on these sorts of problems.

 

[a_cermak]

Unfortunately I’m dealing with a person that is not sensible enough to understand where I’m coming from (she’s not Catholic). Hence, the hurricane is far from being here, lots of things need rearranging.

Sensibility is not limited to Catholics. I will tell you this, I’ve known a lot of people who have divorced their spouses and I can tell the ones who tried everything they could to make it work, and those who didn’t. The ones who gave up easily, give up on other things easily too. There’s no stick-to-it-iveness to them. The ones who really and truly tried, now they have character and learned a lot from their doomed relationships.

So the question is, are you going to make this a growing experience and try to make this marriage work as best you can? Or are you going to give up easily now that you think the Church has given you a get out of marriage free card and go on to the next marriage, or hobby and give up on it and go on to the next?

 

[khutcheson]

M0nkey,

You have found a new love for Christ and the Church, great. But you can’t expect your wife to appreciate the fact you want her to change. You said you are praying for her conversion. Keep praying but let her come to the church in her own way and in God’s time. You can’t force or browbeat someone into loving the Church. You both could benefit from reading the books by Scott and Kimberly Hahn about their journeys into the Catholic Church. I highly recommend them.

Since you didn’t know the church’s laws about marriage, you too need to learn more about your faith. Maybe you two could learn together. I think your wife is a ‘keeper’. She doesn’t agree with you but she cared enough to go to mass with you for 7 months!

Yes, you need to go to counseling so you can both learn to deal with your differences. You need to respect each other. Think about the things that first drew you together. Some of the things you like about your wife probably were a result of her Baptist upbringing.

There is one very positive thing about the problem you are having. It is because you each care about God. Would you rather be married to someone who thinks religion is unimportant? I say hang in there and keep up with the counseling, maybe with a different counselor.

Good advice.

I was getting frustrated reading the posts from the faithful Catholics who had the confidence to recommend giving up on this marriage based on an internet post. There’s a hubris there that is scary. I’m a divorce lawyer and I don’t recommend people end marriages based on this little evidence. Certainly faith is important, but it seems to me that a shared love for God is the basis for a stronger marriage. I’m not convinced that the problems here are truly insurmountable conflicts between Catholicism and Protestantism from what I’ve read.

There’s wisdom in Claire’s post.

OP, my advice is to pray, be humble and move slowly! If both of you do so, you migh be amazed at what God can do.

 

[khutcheson]

We never agreed in raising children Protestant. In fact, I told her we would deal with this issue later.

Oi Vey!!!

 

[Peter_J]

Well said, khutcheson.

M0nkey,

What I’d like to ask you at this point is, do you and your wife both agree that the marriage counseling is not really helping, or just you? And have you discussed with the counselor that it doesn’t seem to be helping?

If it truly is not helping, then I agree that you need to try something different, maybe a different counselor. But saying “Our marriage counseling isn’t helping, so I’m instead going to post the details of our marriage on the internet, and anybody who wants to respond can” is like saying “My old diet wasn’t working, so now I’m only eating grass.”

P.S. Statements like “Unfortunately I’m dealing with a person that is not sensible enough to understand where I’m coming from (she’s not Catholic)” really raise red flag for me.

 

[richardsgirl]

Dear M0onkey, I really hope you can sort out the problems in your marriage and I definitely don’t think you should just walk away… There’s no reason based on your posts to think that your marriage is invalid (I don’t believe so anyway), it just needs to be convalidated. I think you should do that as soon as you can so you can resume normal marital relations without guilt, hopefully that might help this situation in some way . You will also receive all the graces of a sacramental marriage !

I really can’t believe the people on here recommending that you walk away… blatantly irresponsible advice, and Catholics are supposed to respect the permanence of marriage .
I know a seperation is not the same as a divorce but it could well be a first step, certainly it will not help you to sort out your problems but instead create a great deal of distress and insecurity. The first couple of years of marriage are often hard, so I hear… stick with it and hopefully things will improve:thumbsup:

Definitely talk to a good priest or counsellor about this rather than an internet forum… and please don’t keep saying such mean and uncharitable things on here about your wife, you might be frustrated but that is just wrong By coming to your church for the past seven months she has made quite a substantial gesture & yet you are just trashing that, no wonder the two of you are having problems!

 

[richardsgirl]

P.S. Statements like “Unfortunately I’m dealing with a person that is not sensible enough to understand where I’m coming from (she’s not Catholic)” really raise red flag for me.

I agree!

 

[richardsgirl]

Here is a marriage prayer which I think is lovely (maybe the two of you could pray it together daily)

Lord, help us to remember when we first met and the strong love that grew between us.
To work that love into practical things so nothing can divide us.
We ask for words both kind and loving
And hearts always ready to ask forgiveness as well as to forgive.
Dear Lord, we put our marriage into your hands. Amen.

 

[vocatio]

One word comes to mind Retrouvaille