Should we even have EMHC's?

[Sir_Knight]

I have a question. In your diocese how are EMHCs trained? In our diocese they have to go to a two day session (a total of 8 hours) and then get parish specific training (where to stand, info about scheduling, when they will be commissioned, and other information). At the diocesan part they get a one hour presentation on the Liturgy of the Eucharist, a presentation on the theology and spiritualyity of Eucharist and then a basic “how to” with questions and answers. The second day is completely devoted to homebound and hospital ministry to the sick.

In my parish the parish nun handed me a book and the priest laid his hands on me while saying a prayer in Latin saying that he couldn’t say it in English because he didn’t have an English version of it. Total time … 10-15 minutes tops.

 

[bilop]

Again, as a pastor who has experience & training in this area, which those sitting in the pews do not have, should we trust his judgment to be more informative as to what is needed or not?

The thing is, a pastor may be under a great deal of pressure from people who think they have a right to be EMHCs, where no such right exists. It may be very hard for him to stand up to these people and risk a row with in the Parish.

It would be much better for the Bishops to give clear guidance.
i.e.

1. All Priests and Deacons present MUST distribute Communion
2. Must be more than 200 attendees per Ordinary Minister before using EMHC
3. Communion in one species only if >200 attendees per Ordinary Minister
4. No more than 1 Ordinary Minister/EMHC per 200 attendees

We also muct remember that there are people out their who want to use female EMHCs as a wedge to drive for women priests, despite the repeated pronouncement of the Pope and Vatican.

God Bless

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

I could see not distributing both forms at daily or Sunday Mass, since in Luke 24 Jesus blessed and broke the bread.

Luke 24:3-32 "When He had reclined at the table with them, He took the bread and blessed it, and breaking it, He began giving it to them. Then their eyes were opened and they recognized Him; and He vanished from their sight. They said to one another, “Were not our hearts burning within us while He was speaking to us on the road, while He was explaining the Scriptures to us?”

Mt 26:26-28 "While they were eating, Jesus took some bread, and after a blessing, He broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, “Take, eat; this is My body.” And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you; for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out **for many **for forgiveness of sins.

Is your opinion based more on convenience, than theologically based? Seems to be more based on pastor’s preference, since how much more “effort” is needed to avail the cup to all the faithful? Or is the cup only for a few when Mass is not crowded?

God bless,

Michael

One received the Body, Blood, soul, and divinity of Christ under either form. No one is “short changed” because the Chalice was not available to the laity at a given Mass or the Chalice ran empty before the last 25 people were able to drink from it.

 

[Brendan]

Please clarify how a Parishioner is “bitten” if a pastor decided to use more EMHCs than the Parishioner thinks is needed?

Again, as a pastor who has experience & training in this area, which those sitting in the pews do not have, should we trust his judgment to be more informative as to what is needed or not?

Do you want to know exactly how a parishioner can be ‘bitten’ by the priest in this way, go and re-read ‘lovemyfaiths’ post above.

The priests who count the EMHC’s before they come out them selves are not using the ‘training and experience’ you are touting.

It is perfectly correct to ‘second guess’ them, because they are in error.

 

[Church_Militant]

Sure we should! They had them in the early church and many of them gave their lives to carry the Eucharist safely to other believers.

 

[japhy]

In my parish the parish nun handed me a book and the priest laid his hands on me while saying a prayer in Latin saying that he couldn’t say it in English because he didn’t have an English version of it. Total time … 10-15 minutes tops.

“Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion should receive sufficient spiritual, theological, and practical preparation to fulfill their role with knowledge and reverence.” (USCCB Committee on the Liturgy’s General Principles for EMHCs) Do you feel you received “sufficient spiritual, theological, and practical preparation”?

Did your priest use the Order for the Commissioning of Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion?

 

[Sir_Knight]

Do you want to know exactly how a parishioner can be ‘bitten’ by the priest in this way, go and re-read ‘lovemyfaiths’ post above.

I’ve re-read it and I don’t see it. Once the bread is consecrated, it doesn’t matter if we receive from an EMHC or the Pope. We are still the Body, Blood, soul, and divinity of the God of the Universe no matter who gives it to us and isn’t THAT the important thing?

The priests who count the EMHC’s before they come out them selves are not using the ‘training and experience’ you are touting.

Why not? Maybe in their EDUCATED opinion and actual EXPERIENCE based on circumstances that you are not aware of, they ARE implementing the correct course of action.

Our priests need our support and the benefit of the doubt.

It is perfectly correct to ‘second guess’ them, because they are in error.

They are in error? And this is coming from someone who has how much formal training and actual experience?

Yes, let’s second guess our priests and seeing that, less and less men will be entering the priesthood because they will not want to deal with all of that and you’ll have even more EMHC’s to deal with.

 

[Sir_Knight]

Did your priest use the Order for the Commissioning of Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion?

I don’t know. It was all in Latin.

“Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion should receive sufficient spiritual, theological, and practical preparation to fulfill their role with knowledge and reverence.” (USCCB Committee on the Liturgy’s General Principles for EMHCs) Do you feel you received “sufficient spiritual, theological, and practical preparation”?

I was give a book and told to memorize the process.

 

[Sir_Knight]

The thing is, a pastor may be under a great deal of pressure from people who think they have a right to be EMHCs, where no such right exists. It may be very hard for him to stand up to these people and risk a row with in the Parish.

First off, if he has been entrusted with running a parish then he should do what is right and not do something that he feels might be wrong because it’s easier.

Secondly, in my parish, where we already have about half a dozen EMHC’s at each Sunday Mass, our Pastor approached ME saying of the GREAT need for additional EMHCs. When I was hesitant, he quoted scripture (the part about anyone who gives someone even a cup of water for Christ’s sake will not go unrewarded – how much more important it is to bring the body & blood of Christ to others) to convince me.

It would be much better for the Bishops to give clear guidance.
i.e.

1. All Priests and Deacons present MUST distribute Communion
2. Must be more than 200 attendees per Ordinary Minister before using EMHC
3. Communion in one species only if >200 attendees per Ordinary Minister
4. No more than 1 Ordinary Minister/EMHC per 200 attendees

Maybe the Bishops have trust in their priests – as we all should.

We also muct remember that there are people out their who want to use female EMHCs as a wedge to drive for women priests, despite the repeated pronouncement of the Pope and Vatican.

God Bless

And Vatican has already ruled that THAT can never happen. Future Popes can’t change the infallible ruling of a previous Pope.

 

[Brendan]

I’ve re-read it and I don’t see it. Once the bread is consecrated, it doesn’t matter if we receive from an EMHC or the Pope. We are still the Body, Blood, soul, and divinity of the God of the Universe no matter who gives it to us and isn’t THAT the important thing?[/quiote]

Actually, there is one important difference. The priest is in persona Christi during Mass, so when we receive from the priest, we are recieving it from Christ Himself. That is not true for an EMHC"

Why not? Maybe in their EDUCATED opinion and actual EXPERIENCE based on circumstances that you are not aware of, they ARE implementing the correct course of action.

Our priests need our support and the benefit of the doubt.

Then the priest can, in his educated opinion, explain why he is not acting as an Ordinary Minister when he is present at the Mass, even though the Vatican instructions say that an EMHC should not perform their role in the presence of an Ordinary Minster.

Is this Educated opinion supposed to be secret, if not the priest should not mind if we ask about about the relevant Vatican instructions and why he is not complying with them.

They are in error? And this is coming from someone who has how much formal training and actual experience?

Actually, yes. As I mentioned before, I’m studying for the Diaconate, at the same seminary that trains the priests for our diocese, in the same classes even. But I suppose the part valid reasons for ignoring Vatican instructions will come later in my education.

And if, as a Deacon, a parishioner brings forward Vatican instructions on a matter, I will either do my best to comply or have thought out the matter so thourghy that I will have a rock solid, logical, answer as to why not. Should we ask any less from our Clergy?

Yes, let’s second guess our priests and seeing that, less and less men will be entering the priesthood because they will not want to deal with all of that and you’ll have even more EMHC’s to deal with.

Actually, quite the opposite. Most of the seminarians I study with are also of the same mind set. And if a man is so petty as to think that they are not supposed to be required to reconcile their behavior with Vatican teachings, then those are men that the Holy Spirit is not truely calling, as the Holy Spirit cannot be opposed to Himself.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Hello,

What kind of additional strain would be put on the Priest in the absence of the EMHC’s?

It would increase the length of the Mass, thereby forcing him to race across town to say Mass at the other parish.

Jim

 

[JimR-OCDS]

170 people receiving Holy Communion? That’s the celebrating priest plus one person ministering the chalice – at most.

No, its the celebrating priest, pluse a deacon or EMHC and two ministering the chalice, one on the left and right of the church.
People procede up the center isle to receive the host, then go to the left or right, depending on which side they’re sitting on, to receive from the cup.

The desicion is my pastor’s, not people in this forum(thankfully).

Jim

 

[japhy]

I was give a book and told to memorize the process.

And would you consider what the book contained as “sufficient spiritual, theological, and practical preparation”? What was the book?

 

[NewUlm1976_2000]

Hello,

I couldn’t disagree with this more. There is a divide between the clergy and the laity - an ontological one. Extraordinary Ministers are not to be used to encourage participation (RS 151). And it was not one of the motives for the new missal being promulgated. In fact it didn’t occur until after the new missal was promulgated.

Part of this is also delegation of duties. Having more EMs helps each mass go smoothly, on time, to be ready for the next one (when you have 1-3 masses on Sunday). It also reduces stress for the priest for the rest of the week. Some here seem to want to put everything on his shoulders, which quickly leads to burnout and spiritual exhaustion of the priest. EMs also help pace him in his duties.

Mass is as much a community gathering as it is a spiritual recharge for people once a week. Being an EM is a spiritually growing experience for many. Over many masses in many parishes over many dioceses I have never seen one that was disrespectful in their duties.

 

[Sir_Knight]

And would you consider what the book contained as “sufficient spiritual, theological, and practical preparation”?

Not in the least.

What was the book?

I don’t even recall. I made up my own cheat sheet. Laminated it and use it.

 

[japhy]

Not in the least. I don’t even recall. I made up my own cheat sheet. Laminated it and use it.

See, these should be “red flags” that something isn’t quite right. But I also have a feeling you simply weren’t aware of what you should have received. That’s not fair for you or the parish. Cutting corners is not what Vatican II intended.

 

[Sir_Knight]

Why not? Maybe in their EDUCATED opinion and actual EXPERIENCE based on circumstances that you are not aware of, they ARE implementing the correct course of action.

Does a shepard answer to his sheep? No. Neither does a pastor have to justify his actions to his flock. If his bishop trusts him to make the correct decision, why don’t the people has the same faith in their spiritual leader as the bishop does?

Actually, yes. As I mentioned before, I’m studying for the Diaconate, at the same seminary that trains the priests for our diocese, in the same classes even. But I suppose the part valid reasons for ignoring Vatican instructions will come later in my education.

And if, as a Deacon, a parishioner brings forward Vatican instructions on a matter, I will either do my best to comply or have thought out the matter so thourghy that I will have a rock solid, logical, answer as to why not. Should we ask any less from our Clergy?

If your pastor tells you to do something that you don’t think is in keeping with Vatican teaching, will you disobey?

There’s a case in my old parish where the pastor instructed a priest to do something. The priest didn’t because he didn’t think that it was in keeping with church teaching. The matter was brought to the bishop and the priest that disobeyed is no longer a priest.

Actually, quite the opposite. Most of the seminarians I study with are also of the same mind set. And if a man is so petty as to think that they are not supposed to be required to reconcile their behavior with Vatican teachings, then those are men that the Holy Spirit is not truely calling, as the Holy Spirit cannot be opposed to Himself.

Then why the drop in the priesthood. Some priests are assigned two and three parishes to cover due to the shortage. Some parishes can’t even have a Sunday mass but a communion service due to lack of priests in the area.

And in my work with the high school youth (Knights of Columbus Squires program), many have doubts about answering the call and the main reason that I hear is the lack of support that people seem to show to priests.

 

[Sir_Knight]

See, these should be “red flags” that something isn’t quite right. But I also have a feeling you simply weren’t aware of what you should have received. That’s not fair for you or the parish. Cutting corners is not what Vatican II intended.

So what would you do if approached by the Pastor and asked to be one? Him telling you that he wouldn’t be asking you if he didn’t feel that the need was great. That anyone who gives someone even a cup of water for Christ’s sake will not go unrewarded and how much more important it is to bring the body & blood of Christ to others.

When you agree, he tells you to meet with the parish nun who hands you a book and tells you to memorize certain pages and walks you over to another priest who lays hands on you and prays in Latin.

When you ask him if there is anything else, he says ‘no’ and shakes your hand saying ‘congratulations, we can really use the extra help.’

Do you tell him that he is wrong? That there should be more to it? Do you not perform the duties that are now being assigned to you?

Please advise?

 

[Brendan]

Does a shepard answer to his sheep? No. Neither does a pastor have to justify his actions to his flock. If his bishop trusts him to make the correct decision, why don’t the people has the same faith in their spiritual leader as the bishop does?

I didn’t say that he had to answer TO me, just provide an answer to a question, Lumen Genitum states that the role of the priest is to educate. If a parishonier has a question on how a liturgical practice conforms to the guidelines for the Church. Why do you think that it would be unreasonable for the priest to do this?

If your pastor tells you to do something that you don’t think is in keeping with Vatican teaching, will you disobey?

If the pastor cannot provide instruction on why his order would NOT be disobedient to the Vatican, I would simply change parishes. If, as a Deacon, the bishop issues instructions that conflict with Rome, I would literally move to a different diocese. My soul is too precious to allow it to fall into disobedience to His Church.

Now a question for you, if you lived in 430 Constantinople, and Nestorius was your bishop, would you follow his teachings, or those of Rome? If you were a Deacon under him, would it be more important to your soul to remain a deacon, or to follow the true instructions of Christ’s Church?

There’s a case in my old parish where the pastor instructed a priest to do something. The priest didn’t because he didn’t think that it was in keeping with church teaching. The matter was brought to the bishop and the priest that disobeyed is no longer a priest.

That is why the Church provides a forum to clarify these issues, it’s called the Magisterium. And it has been known to depose bishops who don’t obey too you know

So, if a choice between a pastor and Rome is to be forced, no one can ever sin by siding with Rome. And that’s all that really matters.

Then why the drop in the priesthood. Some priests are assigned two and three parishes to cover due to the shortage. Some parishes can’t even have a Sunday mass but a communion service due to lack of priests in the area.

Actually, I see a RISE in vocations, particularly in parishes that show the greatest fidelity to the Magiestirum. For example, my parish of about 900 families, has 6 men in the seminary right now, (and has 6 others ordained to the priesthood in the last 10 years), 3 men in the Diaconate program, and 3 women in noviate programs into religious life.

Why? Maybe it’s because our parish STRESSES the role of the priest, clergy and religious. We don’t use EMHC’s at all. And we have full knowledge that Vatican instructions are being followed to a ‘T’.

And in my work with the high school youth (Knights of Columbus Squires program), many have doubts about answering the call and the main reason that I hear is the lack of support that people seem to show to priests.

From my end, it about the lack of support that people show priests who expect obedience, but show none themselves.

Should not a leader lead by example?

 

[Brendan]

If your pastor tells you to do something that you don’t think is in keeping with Vatican teaching, will you disobey?.

Let me tell you a true story here.

A man I know was at a parish that emptied the holy water fonts during Lent. This man also knew that the Vatican had forbidden that practice.

So this man wrote a nice letter to his pastor, outlining both the theological reasons for keeping holy water in the fonts, and also including the Vatican instruction on the matter.

The pastor replied back that the bishop emptied the fonts in the Cathedral during Lent, and he was following the bishop’s example.

Now most men would have dropped the issue, and mumbled a bit about disobedient bishops.

But this man wrote a letter to the bishop, and didn’t hear back, he wrote another letter, same thing, he wrote a third.

About three weeks later, a letter went out from the bishop’s office instructing ALL parishes in the diocese to NOT empty the fonts during Lent.

Was this man ever disobedient to his pastor or bishop is seeking to have Vatican instructions followed?

(read Luke 18:1-8)