Should we even have EMHC's?

[lak611]

That way, the distribution and purification of vessals should take around 20 minutes and Mass around 1 hour 10 minutes to 1 hour 20 minutes.

Purification does not add to the length of the Mass in my parish. The priest only purifies his own chalice and paten during Mass. The other vessels are left on the credence table, and Father purifies them after Mass is over.

 

[NewUlm1976_2000]

Purification does not add to the length of the Mass in my parish. The priest only purifies his own chalice and paten during Mass. The other vessels are left on the credence table, and Father purifies them after Mass is over.

The priest or an appointed sacristan (sometimes the same parishioner has both duties (sacristan and EM)).

 

[lak611]

The priest or an appointed sacristan (sometimes the same parishioner has both duties (sacristan and EM)).

EMHC’s are not allowed to purify the vessels. See this article.

 

[Mt_28_19_20]

They are not actually needed in many parishes. Maybe Christmas or Easter Vigil, but not every Sunday. Especially not every day at daily Mass. My opinion is that Communion should not be distributed under both forms at daily Mass, or at Sunday Masses with a very large number of people.

I could see not distributing both forms at daily or Sunday Mass, since in Luke 24 Jesus blessed and broke the bread.

Luke 24:3-32 "When He had reclined at the table with them, He took the bread and blessed it, and breaking it, He began giving it to them. Then their eyes were opened and they recognized Him; and He vanished from their sight. They said to one another, “Were not our hearts burning within us while He was speaking to us on the road, while He was explaining the Scriptures to us?”

Mt 26:26-28 "While they were eating, Jesus took some bread, and after a blessing, He broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, “Take, eat; this is My body.” And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you; for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out **for many **for forgiveness of sins.

Is your opinion based more on convenience, than theologically based? Seems to be more based on pastor’s preference, since how much more “effort” is needed to avail the cup to all the faithful? Or is the cup only for a few when Mass is not crowded?

God bless,

Michael

 

[Brendan]

EMHC’s are not allowed to purify the vessels. See this article.

They can if the EMHC is an Instituted Acolyte. If they are not, you are quite correct, they cannot purify the vessels.

 

[lak611]

I could see not distributing both forms at daily or Sunday Mass, since in Luke 24 Jesus blessed and broke the bread.

Luke 24:3-32 "When He had reclined at the table with them, He took the bread and blessed it, and breaking it, He began giving it to them. Then their eyes were opened and they recognized Him; and He vanished from their sight. They said to one another, “Were not our hearts burning within us while He was speaking to us on the road, while He was explaining the Scriptures to us?”

Mt 26:26-28 "While they were eating, Jesus took some bread, and after a blessing, He broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, “Take, eat; this is My body.” And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you; for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out **for many **for forgiveness of sins.

Is your opinion based more on convenience, than theologically based? Seems to be more based on pastor’s preference, since how much more “effort” is needed to avail the cup to all the faithful? Or is the cup only for a few when Mass is not crowded?

God bless,

Michael

Theologically, it does not matter if we receive one Species or both. We receive all of Jesus’ Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity in the Sacred Host or the Precious Blood.

 

[drafdog]

Back in the old days, before the Second Vatican Council, we celebrated Mass in Latin, had four priests in the parish and the distribution of Eucharist under single specie (by four priests) at six Sunday Masses left us with Masses that lasted an hour and a quarter. Today that same suburban parish has only one priest. Should we have EMHC’s? Uhhh, let me think.
I spoke to the pastor of the parish in upstate NY that I attended while on temporary assignment in the area about the strain of celebrating multiple Masses. He celebrates at least two Masses each Sunday and I cannot tell you how exhausting just praying the Mass devoutly once can be, let alone twice. To expect the priest to distribute communion to the whole community on top of that is emotionally and physically abusive.

Matthew

 

[Sacristan]

Instituted Acolytes are the solution and what is appropriate. They effectively have been eliminated as most dioceses ignore the appointment of them and therefore skip over the position and move straight to EMHC’s.
This is the politically correct thing for them to do so as to avoid upsetting the women who would object to men only serving in a position such as this.
Most Catholics seem to be unaware of this as it is ignored and not taught, but it is the solution at least temporarily until vocations are not discouraged anymore. When this anti-clericalism dies down and we start to appreciate the clergy and more Priests\Deacons are ordained.

God Bless
Scylla

I don’t think so. In my diocese it takes about 4 years of formation to be ordained a deacon. It’s not until their final year that aspirants are instituted as lectors and then acolytes. This seems common in other dioceses as well.

Are suggesting we should dumb-down the requirements to be instituted as acolytes? I don’t know of many who would go through over three years of formation and then abruptly stop before being ordained. More deacons may indeed be part of the answer, but dumbing-down the requirements to become an instituted acolyte seems counter productive.

 

[Brenda_V]

OK everyone I wanted to explore this Instituted Acolyte idea more and didn’t want to derail this thread so I started a new thread right here in Liturgy and Sacraments here forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=2805433#post2805433

So, if any of you wish to come help me and others understand exactly what an Instituted Acolyte is and how this could help the Church please visit that thread and let this one be about EMHC’s

Brenda V.

 

[Sr_Sally]

Thank you for this information!

 

[lak611]

They can if the EMHC is an Instituted Acolyte. If they are not, you are quite correct, they cannot purify the vessels.

Yes, Instituted Acolytes are allowed to purify. Other EMHC’s or Sacristans are not allowed.

 

[Sacristan]

Back in the old days, before the Second Vatican Council, we celebrated Mass in Latin, had four priests in the parish and the distribution of Eucharist under single specie (by four priests) at six Sunday Masses left us with Masses that lasted an hour and a quarter. Today that same suburban parish has only one priest. Should we have EMHC’s? Uhhh, let me think.
I spoke to the pastor of the parish in upstate NY that I attended while on temporary assignment in the area about the strain of celebrating multiple Masses. He celebrates at least two Masses each Sunday and I cannot tell you how exhausting just praying the Mass devoutly once can be, let alone twice. To expect the priest to distribute communion to the whole community on top of that is emotionally and physically abusive.

Matthew

That’s very interesting. In the parish I grew up in it took ONE PRIEST to distribute communion, either through one species or via intinction. Intinction was common on Easter and Christmas and a few other holy days.

Today over 40 years later in that exact same church building (with fewer attendees and no seating capacity changes) it takes the same one priest (literally in some cases, a retired monsignor) and a total of NINE EMsHC to distribute communion. That’s deeply abusive.

Can I see 1-2 to offer the chalice? Sure. But 9? No way…

Some of us have gently questioned the use of so many EMHC at Sunday Masses. The venom spewed back by EMHC and those in charge of them was chilling.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I belong to a small parish, where our pastor, serves in two parishes. Even though we only can fit about 170 people in our church at each Mass, there is plenty of need for EMHC.

Our pastor says the 8AM Mass, then has to drive across town to say the 9:30 AM Mass, then drive back to my parish and say the 11AM Mass. We have one Deacon, and he serves at one of the 3 Masses, at which time, we only have ministers of the cup.

Other parishes in my area, have the similar levels of strain on the priest.

There is a definite need for EMHCs.

Jim

 

[Brendan]

Is your opinion based more on convenience, than theologically based? Seems to be more based on pastor’s preference, since how much more “effort” is needed to avail the cup to all the faithful? Or is the cup only for a few when Mass is not crowded?

God bless,

Michael

The Substance of both Body and Blood are present in each species.

Since Christ’s command was Substantial, not Accidental, the command to both Eat and Drink is likewise fullfilled in one species.

The physical response to the Host, for example, is Accidental, our throats are no more required to act upon the Substance of Bread any more than our eyes are required to see meat instead of bread.

So even though our throats react to the Host as if it was bread, the Substantial reaction is that we are both eating His Body AND drinking His Blood in the same species.

In other words, even if we receive only one speices (either one), we fulfill the command of Christ to eat His Body and drink His Blood. Both species are not required.

Presenting both species to the faithful grants the faithful no additional Grace ( how can there be additional Grace when one is recieving God Himself, the source of all Grace)

Nor does it fullfil any additional command of Christ, for if it was a command of Christ to recieve both species always, the Church would have always done it.

But rather, it is a deeper sign, a physical portrayal of a metaphysical reality. But it is a sign only, and not the only one.

An example would be a Stop sign. It signifies a legal reality, that one must stop at that intersection.

The sign could be a red Octagon, which anyone who has been through driving school would recognize.

The sign could also say “STOP” on it, making it a deeper sign, perhaps clarifying even more what the sign signifies. But the legal reality is the same.

Recieving the Host alone is very similar.

For one who is knowledgeable and well trained, it is sufficent. Recieving one species does not change what one is recieving ( the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ). Both species offers a deeper sign, but what one recieves is the same in all respects except the physical.

 

[japhy]

I feel we should keep having EMs distribute the hosts and wine. This was one of the many changes with Vatican II to bring the Mass closer to the people. An active lay presence at mass encourages the parish. It keeps a divide forming between the clergy and the laity, which was one of the reasons Vatican II changed the mass formats from TLM to NO.

There is a “divide” between the clergy and the laity. It’s ordination. The ministerial priesthood is real. Don’t clericize the laity, and don’t laicize the clergy.

And EMHCs were not a change that came from Vatican II. Search its documents and you will come up empty. They were instituted by a 1973 document, Immensae Caritatis (section 1) and were called “special ministers of the Eucharist” back then. It was never instituted “to bring the Mass closer to the people” nor to increase “active lay presence”.

 

[Mt_28_19_20]

Theologically, it does not matter if we receive one Species or both. We receive all of Jesus’ Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity in the Sacred Host or the Precious Blood.

Did I not acknowledge that with my comment and reference to Luke 24:31-32.

My question was how much is whether both bread and wine are distributed based on A) pastoral convenience or preference or B) theology.

Some parishes have both at weekday Mass when a small number of people are attending. And two weeks ago a parish I was visiting had both on Saturday evening where the church was almost packed.

Really, is it that much more effort to distribute both the bread and wine? Are we just trying to “cut corners” and keep Mass from being “too long”? If the cup is not going to be offered to the lay faithful, why not be consistent. Or is it just for “special” occasions, like:
Sunday Mass
weekday Mass
weddings
pastoral preference
when there are not alot of people at Mass

God bless,

Michael

 

[Sir_Knight]

Ah, our Deacons bring the Eucharist to all the sick and homebound, whether at home or in the hospital.

They also involved in the other ministries you mentioned ( our pastor runs the RCIA, though)

Our Deacon just ran a great bible study on Revelation, and had a study of Vertitas Splendor too.

Our deacons are part-timers so they only have time to hit the hospitals but they do run the RCIA. Our pastor runs the motorcycle relays.

 

[Sir_Knight]

Yes, and we agree too. Under certain conditions, EMHC’s are allowed to Commicate the Sacrament. No one is doubting that.

The Church also says that such use should be restricted to times of ‘true necessity’ and should never be done if there are sufficent Ordinary Ministers to accomplish the task in a reasonable time.

And who is more qualified to make the decision as to when they are needed? The pastor or the person sitting in the pew?

 

[Sir_Knight]

It is a permanent ministry by nature, but, unlike Holy Orderes, there is no ontological change, so yes the person may leave the ministry.

Such a departure requires the approval of the Diocesan Bishop, the man could not just decide to give up the ministry on his own.

So if a man moves to a different diocese, what happens then? I’d be interested but during the past decade, I’ve lived in three different dioceses in different parts of the country.

 

[JMJ_coder]

Hello,

They are not actually needed in many parishes. Maybe Christmas or Easter Vigil, but not every Sunday. Especially not every day at daily Mass. My opinion is that Communion should not be distributed under both forms at daily Mass, or at Sunday Masses with a very large number of people.

Yeah, there not need in most parishes. They are not to be used ordinarilly!!! They are really not needed at most daily Masses where attendance is usually less than 50. Sometimes at my Parish at a daily Mass only 10 people will attend and someone will still go up to be an extraordinary minister. I also remember once at a Sunday Mass - a massive snow storm struck the night before and most people didn’t venture out. Only about 25 people showed up and 6 of them went up to be extraordinary ministers. That’s 1 out of 4!!!

You’re right about many attending Christmas and Easter. That’s when all the C&E Catholics come out of the woodworks. But seeing how they don’t attend Sunday Masses normally and most of them won’t have gone to Confession, they shouldn’t be going up for Communion anyway.