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Rau
Guest
It would not be reasonable for a person to “jump ship” over a deep issue like this after a robust chat on the internet. I and all others have our own demons I am sure.
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shelby_sun
Guest
Actually, I said I was done to one person but will continue to respond to those who address me, although not you. It was not until Mary started to post in the lovely way she does that I ever sounded the way you make me out which I believe was many pages into this.Shelby, I was not addressing you. In fact I have purposely not addressed you because it have no interest in engaging you because it would be futile. You seem ready to do battle with everyone around you. Which is your prerogative. You have already said you were done. But continue to rile and be riled. I have to wonder, if you are at peace with your decision why is it that you are causing yourself so much strife and anger over this thread? If you feel persecuted there is no need to continue in the path that you think you are on.
One of the things that I have noticed is that those who have taken a position such as yours in regard to the OP and advice that has to do with mortal sin and heaven and hell is sure sounds a lot like “Let His blood be on our hands” I for one wan’t no potential culpability in a brother or sisters sin. Which is why a simple stating of Church teaching and theology is the best coarse of action. I already gamble my own salvation on my own sins, I don’t need the sins of others to drag me down too!
Responding was against my better judgement. Hopefully I do not regret it.
I have posted with you before and have no time or interest to do it again because you are always right and the better person so we will just go without again. You have no more interest listening to me than I do to you. You should trust your judgement. Take care.
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shelby_sun
Guest
First of all if I had blasted anyone so far, I would have been removed from the post by know don’t you think, but please you the language you need to serve your purpose.
OK whatever you say, I am not going to go round and round with you because I didn’t word thing precisely correctly for your liking. Again if the advice meet your liking I would not have dome anything wrong according to you. Circles and circles.
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shelby_sun
Guest
Really, should I just bash myself in the head and hope someone can brainwash me in my frail mental capacity. Or how about I just tell the OP to stop sinning against the Catholic Church and start listen to all these strangers about how to live your life and why. Talk to no priest until you consult with Mary her, she knows best. I am so glad you people have all the answers and know what is right in every situation even though you have barely any facts.
Rejoice, you have lost me.
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MacQ
Guest
Why would someone criticize Church teaching in that example? The church does NOT teach that you’ve sinned if a medical treatment for other reasons results in sterility.
Only if you seek to be sterilized.
Just clarifying.
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Jaaanosik
Guest
It seems you misunderstood me.
When I said alone I had in mind a person that is actually alone and the person listens to a music for the sake of pleasure/joy/happiness/love alone. No other reason for listening. Would you call such behavior as a ‘mental disorder’?
This example/question is a response to what your wrote here:
When you said:
I have no idea why you brought a conversation into the simple question described above.
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Rau
Guest
Certainly, you have lost me
I make a simple statement agreeing with you, and recognising that we all have our demons - then you respond this way - a bit of a rant, and with seemingly no connection to the thing to which it responds Shelby - there are genuinely situations we face in life which are truly dilemmas - the “right” course is unclear or ambiguous. But, in most cases, the “right” course (if you are prepared to trust the Church, and of course many are not) is clear and unambiguous - but it is hard. The OP’s situation is the latter.
People often confuse “hard” with “unclear”. No great insight is required to know or discover what is right. No greater insight than knowing abortion is wrong. No greater insight than knowing murder is wrong. The teaching regarding contraception is hard because it requires abstinence to conform with it. And in some circumstances, such as the OP’s, it becomes very hard. And if one day, our spouse falls in to a coma, or leaves us - abstinence becomes very hard indeed.
So yes, it is not very hard to know “all the answers” (well, at least a lot of them), but it is very hard to live by them. And you would make a big mistake just to think that because people here might know them, we are all equally as successful as living by them. But, by and large, we can all know what is right.
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Avocadomom
Guest
Wow. Wow guys. This thread I started has really gotten off track and now I’m getting very strange, upsetting posts like this one. I hope my time isn’t up. I have four small children to raise. Jesus says to choose life? My life, the life that is real, or the life of an imaginary child that does not even exist?
I’m sorry to say that I wish I had not posted here. This is nuts and I hardly need anyone telling me to just accept that my time is up and to go ahead and get pregnant and die.
The surrounding arguments are disappointing. I’m really sorry I started this thread and made people turn so acrimonious.
I’ll make this decision with prayer, contemplation and with our priest, who God put in our lives for a reason. He is in control, right?
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NFPWife
Guest
I’m so sorry. This has gotten embarrassing, off-track, and uncharitable. As a fellow woman with a serious health situation, I found that post pretty offensive. I realize that tomorrow is not promised, but I also think that God expects me not to take unnecessary risks with my life - like not charging into the ocean when the red flags are out. I don’t drive without a seatbelt! I think that’s an unnecessary risk. Using a day that I know to be fertile when my life would be in danger if I conceived would be an unnecessary risk, IMO.
I tried to PM you with the Dr. I thought you could call directly, but your mailbox is full. (I hope it isn’t full of foolishness.) If you want a little additional support for resources, PM me.
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Rau
Guest
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PaulGH
Guest
I understand why you feel that way, and I agree that this thread is a bit of a train wreck overall. But I also think you have received some good advice here and there, if you can find it amidst all the arguments.
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Groo
Guest
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Hoosier_Daddy
Guest
I apologize on my behalf and on behalf of those other posters as well.
Some advice was good some was not and some was just plain old weird.
I hope that the acrimony and ability of other posters to make this thread about them instead of you does not turn you off to CAF.
That is the best thing you could do.
Peace, and you will be in my prayers.
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LongingSoul
Guest
The problem with you analogy is that it doesn’t capture the full scope and meaning of sexual intercourse in human life. Intercourse is not an act. It is a relationship between two creatures. So we need to examine purpose in natural law, in regards to the relationship rather than just the act.
In that way, sexual intercourse would be similar to conversation between two people rather than in how listening serves an individual. Both verbal and sexual intercourse are intrinsically fertile exchanges.
Conversation involves imparting seeds of thought from one mind into the receptive ‘womb’ of anothers mind where they find a fruitfulness. A relational fruitfulness. Sometimes those seeds grow into a healthy conversation. Sometimes they are spiritually fruitful as in loving listening without developing into dialogue per se. The thing that makes this conversation, is the full giving and receiving of the self.
Now conversation is not technically holy or sacred but it is generally frowned on to engage someone else in conversation if you are just using them to ‘dump’ on without appreciating their receptivity. It is also frowned upon to be there in the guise of listening but not really listening…being blocked from that receptivity by selfish distraction… hearing words, but not being fully present to them. This selfish dialogue is not seen as benign and acceptable. It is seen as toxic and destructive to the communion of persons participating in this ‘conversation’.
That’s what the Church is imparting with regards to sexual intercourse also. It has such an important role in the relationships of human beings, that to make it a sterile exchange in favour of selfish pleasure is a sort of sacrilege of a holy thing.
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mommy_k
Guest
I have not had time to read all of the posts, but it does seem to have gone off topic.
In reply ti your first post, a priest said there are grey areas.
Just remember that the purpose of being a Catholic is to draw us closer to Christ, not away from him. Jesus does not want to lose you over this, and get tied up in this difficult situation.
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millstreet
Guest
I summarize the early part of this thread as:
If it’s me, I’m choosing (a). Even if I suffer eternal damnation, I will be taking care of my kids and husband, who have a chance of not suffering said damnation. If I die and am not there for them, the likelihood of them going down the wrong path increases greatly. I will talk to them about why I made the decision I did, so I don’t come across as hypocritical. But in the end, I’ll choose (a) to sacrifice my afterlife for my children and husband.
Is that a grey area, or me knowingly abandoning Christ’s teachings? I guess it’s the 2nd thing, although in this case, I’m not taking the selfish route here exactly, from a religious standpoint, assuming I believe in the obscenely hot eternal fire and constant lashings associated with the netherworld to which I am purposefully exposing myself. So maybe that will count for something at the End of Days. Either way, I’m content.
I pray for the OP. This must be extremely difficult. But do not be fooled, there is not one right answer. Understand your options, learn the potential consequences and likelihood thereof (God WILL guide you to the right priest), make decision based on what you’re willing to accept and not accept. Good luck and God Bless.
- OP has a major problem, life at risk if don’t follow Church teaching. What to do?
- Church teaching is very clear. Talk to priest.
- Wait, only talk to priest who will tell you Church teaching is very clear. Others = bad.
- Don’t shop around, but don’t stop looking until you find said priest.
- If 3 - 4, what’s the point of talking to a priest?
- Well, it’s not shopping around, God will guide you to the right priest if you pray on it.
- What if God guides her to a priest who tells her there’s grey areas, follow conscience?
- Conscience only useful if guided by Church teachings.
- Other noise.
- Ugh.
If it’s me, I’m choosing (a). Even if I suffer eternal damnation, I will be taking care of my kids and husband, who have a chance of not suffering said damnation. If I die and am not there for them, the likelihood of them going down the wrong path increases greatly. I will talk to them about why I made the decision I did, so I don’t come across as hypocritical. But in the end, I’ll choose (a) to sacrifice my afterlife for my children and husband.
Is that a grey area, or me knowingly abandoning Christ’s teachings? I guess it’s the 2nd thing, although in this case, I’m not taking the selfish route here exactly, from a religious standpoint, assuming I believe in the obscenely hot eternal fire and constant lashings associated with the netherworld to which I am purposefully exposing myself. So maybe that will count for something at the End of Days. Either way, I’m content.
I pray for the OP. This must be extremely difficult. But do not be fooled, there is not one right answer. Understand your options, learn the potential consequences and likelihood thereof (God WILL guide you to the right priest), make decision based on what you’re willing to accept and not accept. Good luck and God Bless.
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mommy_k
Guest
I would think that this could be compared with someone who was told by a doctor that they needed a hysterectomy at a young age due to health concerns that are life threatening.
Catholic hospitals perform hysterectomies- correct? Why would they if there are no grey areas?
The reason is because it is different then just going to a hospital and asking to be sterilized for convienience.
Hysterectomy for life preservation is not a sin, and neither is having a medical procedure that is similar.
Catholic hospitals perform hysterectomies- correct? Why would they if there are no grey areas?
The reason is because it is different then just going to a hospital and asking to be sterilized for convienience.
Hysterectomy for life preservation is not a sin, and neither is having a medical procedure that is similar.
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Rau
Guest
“What” could be compared with a hysterectomy?
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PumpkinPies37
Guest
It’s threads like this that make me want to stick a pencil in my eye.
Yet, I can’t look away.
Half the time I’m like “Oh my gosh, people are CRAZAY!”.
The other half, I’m like “Aw, people are suffering”.
I’ve surmised that Catholics are half crazy and half suffering.
Yet, I can’t look away.
Half the time I’m like “Oh my gosh, people are CRAZAY!”.
The other half, I’m like “Aw, people are suffering”.
I’ve surmised that Catholics are half crazy and half suffering.
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Lillibut
Guest
“Catholics are half crazy and half suffering”
True. Which does raise the question, is there a cause/effect relationship? How much of the suffering is caused by being crazy and how much of the craziness is caused by the suffering?
Just a thought
True. Which does raise the question, is there a cause/effect relationship? How much of the suffering is caused by being crazy and how much of the craziness is caused by the suffering?
Just a thought
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