Should we watch Michael Voris?

[TMC]

This is not an official document with official teaching on Judaism. As it clearly says in it’s preface:

The text is not a magisterial document or doctrinal teaching of the Catholic Church, but is a reflection prepared by the Commission for Religious Relations with the Jews on current theological questions that have developed since the Second Vatican Council. It is intended to be a starting point for further theological thought with a view to enriching and intensifying the theological dimension of Jewish–Catholic dialogue.

and from the document:

there cannot be different paths or approaches to God’s salvation. The theory that there may be two different paths to salvation, the Jewish path without Christ and the path with the Christ, whom Christians believe is Jesus of Nazareth, would in fact endanger the foundations of Christian faith. …

It is the belief of the Church that Christ is the Saviour for all . There cannot be two ways of salvation, therefore, since Christ is also the Redeemer of the Jews in addition to the Gentiles.

OK, so are you saying it is wrong? It may not carry the force of a councilor document, but it is an official proclamation of the Church. It is fully consistent with the Catechism, and with other magisterial teachings, such as Nostre Aetate, and Lumen Gentium.

The Church teaches clearly that the Old Covenant with the Jews remains in place, and that Jews can be saved without converting - through Christ, but without recognizing Christ as the Messiah in this life. That is Church teaching, which Voris squarely contradicts. Anyone is free to follow Voris instead of the Catholic Church, but Catholic teaching on the topic is clear.

 

[TMC]

I don’t think this squares with Catholic teaching prior to Vatican II and this document doesn’t do the best job of explaining salvation outside of the Church.

As the text itself explains, there was a period in which the Church taught differently, but this teaching is consistent with the views of the early Church.

. This belief that Jews are saved, while expressly denying the divinity of Christ is not accurate and it’s documents such as this, that cause people to reject the need of the Catholic Church. What need is there of Jesus or His Church or the sacraments, if anyone is saved simply because of an unknown divine mystery, that is not taught by the Church or scripture?

You say it is not accurate. I am not sure what you mean by that. It is accurate in the sense that it is the teaching of the Church. You may disagree with it, but the Church says what the Church teaches, not Mr. Voris or anyone else. The document does not say Jesus is not needed, to the contrary it emphasizes the necessity of Jesus in the plan of salvation - but it also teaches that Jews do not need to believe Jesus is the Messiah to be saved by Him. You say this is not taught by Church or scripture, but it is taught by the Church, and the Church explains how the teaching is consistent with scripture.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

OK, so are you saying it is wrong?

I am not saying it is wrong. I am saying it is not an official Church teaching document, nor is it an official proclamation of the Church, but as the preface says, it is a starting point for dialogue. It is also not a papal document but a document from the Commission for Religious Relations with the Jews, which was signed by these three people; Cardinal Kurt Koch, President, The Most Reverend Brian Farrell Vice–President and The Reverend Norbert Hoffman SBD secretary.

While Nostre Aetate and Lumen Gentium are authoritative documents, they are not, nor do the make any official declarations.

As I said earlier if the Old Covenant in it’s original form is still in place with the Jewish people, then that means they are working to follow the Mosaic law to be saved but Christ is the one who fullfilled the Old Covenant. The Old Covenant is fullfilled in the New Covenant. Jesus is God. He was at work in the Old Covenant and in the New Covenant and He gave us one path to salvation.

which Voris squarely contradicts.

I would need to see exact quotes from Michael Voris to know exactly what statement’s he is making that go against Church teaching. I have not heard him say anything that does.

 

[TMC]

I would need to see exact quotes from Michael Voris to know exactly what statement’s he is making that go against Church teaching. I have not heard him say anything that does.

I am a bit confused as to what you are saying. Or are you saying that the Church does not teach that the Old Covenant remains in place and that Jews can be saved? Pope John Paul II and all of his successors have been very clear on that point. And while you seem to doubt that I am correct about what Lumen Gentium and the Catechism say about the Jews, they are both pretty clear on the topic.

As to Voris, just google his teachings. He directly contradicts the Church’s teachings on Judaism. It is not hard to find.

 

[HumbleIOughtToBe]

Thank You, I learn more about credibility of my fallible sources.

 

[HumbleIOughtToBe]

I hold nothing against the traditional and orthodox Catholicism that he holds. Fun story, he went after Franciscan University, it don’t get much more Orthodox than that.

I believe that his intentions are for the benefit of the Church

I agree with that quote.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

are you saying that the Church does not teach that the Old Covenant remains in place and that Jews can be saved?

I’m saying that the old covenant is fulfilled through Christ and His Church and yes absolutely, every single human being CAN be saved through Christ.

 

[Crusader13]

The document does not say Jesus is not needed, to the contrary it emphasizes the necessity of Jesus in the plan of salvation - but it also teaches that Jews do not need to believe Jesus is the Messiah to be saved by Him.

I agree that’s what the document is saying. However, that interpretation is not shared by the Church throughout history.

I believe it to be an attempt of fostering Christian/Jewish unity by telling them they can deny Christ and still be saved because to say otherwise is mistakenly labeled anti-Semitic. This mindset sets a dangerous precedent and isn’t supported in either Scripture or Church Tradition.

 

[TMC]

If I understand you correctly, that is what the Church teaches, provides you agree with the Church that Jews need not convert to be saved by Christ

 

[TMC]

Did you read the Vatican document I provided? It explains that while the Church went through a long period during which the teaching was different, the current teaching is consistent with the tradition of the early Church and with scripture.

Of course, you can choose to follow the heterodox “teaching” of Voris and his ilk. But you should realize that he is in dissent from Church teaching on this issue (and others).

 

[MagdalenaRita]

I agree that’s what the document is saying. However, that interpretation is not shared by the Church throughout history.

I believe it to be an attempt of fostering Christian/Jewish unity by telling them they can deny Christ and still be saved because to say otherwise is mistakenly labeled anti-Semitic. This mindset sets a dangerous precedent and isn’t supported in either Scripture or Church Tradition.

This is it exactly.

If I understand you correctly, that is what the Church teaches, provides you agree with the Church that Jews need not convert to be saved by Christ

I am not saying that, mainly because I do agree with what the Church teaches and I have not heard of any doctrine that says that there are two paths to salvation, one for the Jewish people and one for everyone else. Much of the theology that Jewish people do not need to convert (or dual convenantalism) is coming from Cardinal Walter Kasper and other German bishops. Just because something says it is from the Vatican does not make it an official church teaching.

There is on the other hand a doctrine that says there is no salvation outside the Catholic church. I would never tell someone who is physically outside the Catholic church and yet knows Church teaching, that they do not need to come into the Church. I would be participating in putting their soul in danger.

Our very first Pope was called the Apostles to the Jews and he said, “Therefore let all the house of Israel know most certainly, that God hath made both Lord and Christ, this same Jesus”

Jesus himself said in Matthew 10, " But go ye rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And going, preach, saying: The kingdom of heaven is at hand."

 

[TMC]

Did you read the Vatican document? It explains that there is one path for salvation, but that Jews nonetheless need not convert. It is admittedly a bit of a mystery, but much of Faith is a mystery.

You say the Church doesn’t teach this, but it clearly does. It is not only in the Vatican document I posted, but also in the statements of the Popes. Is the Pope wrong about what the Church teaches? Are the Vatican and the Cardinals unaware of the Church’s actual teaching?

 

[MagdalenaRita]

Did you read the Vatican document? It explains that there is one path for salvation, but that Jews nonetheless need not convert. It is admittedly a bit of a mystery, but much of Faith is a mystery.

The document speaks of evangelizing to the Jews in a different way because they do not need to “convert” to the one true God because they already believe in Him but we are still to bear witness to Jesus.

“The Church is therefore obliged to view evangelisation to Jews, who believe in the one God, in a different manner from that to people of other religions and world views. In concrete terms this means that the Catholic Church neither conducts nor supports any specific institutional mission work directed towards Jews. While there is a principled rejection of an institutional Jewish mission, Christians are nonetheless called to bear witness to their faith in Jesus Christ also to Jews,”

Pope Benedict XVI calls it a dialogue rather than a mission.

and

“Here we confront the mystery of God’s work, which is not a matter of missionary efforts to convert Jews, but rather the expectation that the Lord will bring about the hour when we will all be united,”

And as Christians we believe that there will be a time the the Jewish people and Christians will be united in Christ, when the time of the Gentiles is over.

Are the Vatican and the Cardinals unaware of the Church’s actual teaching?

The Vatican is a huge place with many people but as far as Cardinals, yes they typically are aware of Church teaching, but some want to change it.

I’m sorry, I know you want me to agree that a person can be saved without Christ but I do not agree with that because that is not Church teaching and to not tell someone about the beautiful mercy and love of Christ and the power and graces in the Sacraments, especially the Eucharist, is just wrong.

 

[TMC]

Suit yourself. For those that want to know what the Church teaches, I recommend reading official Church documents. I linked to the Church’s latest statement on Judaism above.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

For those that want to know what the Church teaches, I recommend reading official Church documents.

Exactly, yes, I completely agree with reading official Church documents, but the Commission for Religous Relations with the Jews is not an “official” Church document as it clearly says, " The text is not a magisterial document or doctrinal teaching of the Catholic Church, but is a reflection.

God bless

 

[TMC]

If you are seriously going to contend that you (or Voris) have a better understanding of Church teaching than the Vatican, there is really no point in further discussion.

Voris teaches supersessionism, which is condemned by the Church. The Church teaches that the Old Covenant remains in place, and that Jews can be saved without conversion. Anyone that wants to know what the Church teaches, as opposed to what Voris teaches, can follow the link I posted above.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

If you are seriously going to contend that you (or Voris) have a better understanding of Church teaching than the Vatican, there is really no point in further discussion.

I have not said nor am I saying I have a better understanding of Church teaching than the Vatican but the document you posted does not represent all of the Vatican and it is not an official Church document as the document itself says. It is a reflection of three people.

There are many commissions in the Vatican and many documents but they are not all Church teaching. They are not all Scripture and Tradition or papal documents. They are not all infallible and are not required to be believed and followed…

Loving our fellow human beings is being witnesses of of the love of Christ and the beautiful power of the Eucharist. Why would anyone not want to share that with anyone?

Words to the Jewish people from our first Pope, Peter, and the one whom the Church is built on:

Acts 2: Do penance, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins: and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is to you, and to your children, and to all that are far off,

God bless.

 

[TMC]

I have not said nor am I saying I have a better understanding of Church teaching than the Vatican but the document you posted does not represent all of the Vatican and it is not an official Church document as the document itself says. It is a reflection of three people.

LOL, seriously?? It is certainly an official Church document. It is not magisterial, which means it does not have the same level of authority of, say, an encyclical. It is authored by a Pontifical Commission not just “three people.” The three people that signed it include a Cardinal. So you are saying you know more about the Church’s teaching on Judaism then the Cardinal that the Pope put in charge of the Church’s relationship with the Jews. OK.

Regardless, the document you dismiss as the meandering thoughts of “three people” is fully consistent with the broader teaching of the Church. Saint Pope John Paul II said that the Old Covenant has never been revoked and approved the Catechism, which says the same. Is he just “one person”?

Church teaching is clear on this point, and it is not what Voris is putting forward. Follow him if you want, or follow the Popes and the Church. It is not possible to do both.

 

[Ignatius]

Well, when the bishop in question was a protege oh disgraced Cardinal Theodore McCarrick, (Pope Defrocks Theodore McCarrick, Ex-Cardinal Accused of Sexual Abuse - The New York Times, it might actually be a sign that Voris is Faithful.

 

[Crusader13]

The Church teaches that the Old Covenant remains in place, and that Jews can be saved without conversion. Anyone that wants to know what the Church teaches, as opposed to what Voris teaches, can follow the link I posted above.

I’m not subscribing to Voris’ personal interpretation of salvation, but that of the Church. This idea that Nostra aetate contains in it the fullness of Church teaching on the matter is not correct. Even Lumen Gentium doesn’t imply what the drafters of this document are reaching for. In Lumen Gentium it speaks of the “relatedness” of the Jews and Moslems to the Church, but this relatedness is not salvific. Meaning, no Jew or Moslem is saved simply because they choose to remain in their faith. That has never been the position of the Church and still isn’t, regardless of what certain clergy claim.

No one is arguing that the documents weren’t validly drafted and inserted into VII, but the documents themselves were not infallibly defined and as such, are open to critique, which also includes the possibility that they may contain error or at the very least, those who seek to use them as their foundation for implying that all non-Catholics are saved, without needing to have a faith in Christ, is a grave error.

There is no scriptural proof for the assertion that faith in Christ and baptism are optional for salvation. The Church did address the issue of those who never heard of Christ, by way of invincible ignorance and their possibility of salvation, but having never heard of something, is far different then openly rejecting it.

When it comes to my salvation and those of others, I will never tell them that they don’t need to believe in Christ. I’d rather bet my salvation on the possibility that Nostra aetate contains errors, rather than the probability that one can attain heaven without a belief in Jesus.

Also, the Old Covenant doesn’t offer salvation, only through Jesus and the New Covenant, is that possible. Paul makes this perfectly clear, that the Law cannot save! Which is exactly what the Jews hold to.