Sign of Jonah

[MHalsey]

Hi
Simply because I noted it when I searched OTBible about Criterian of True/False Prophet that this tilt on False Prophets had hardened the Jews of the time of Jesus and before him.
I also noted that Jesus had also noted it, and it is on record in the NTBible Matthew 23:35-36. PromisedMessiahImamMahdi also took notice on this:alislam.org/library/books/jesus-in-india/ch1.html

"Among the testimonies of the gospel which have reached us is the verse from Matthew: ‘That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. Verily I say unto you, all these things shall come upon this generation’.* **Now, if you think over these verses you will find that Jesus (peace be on him) clearly states that the killing of prophets by the Jews ceased with the prophet Zacharias, and that after that, the Jews would have no power to kill any prophet. (emphasis added) This is a great prophecy which clearly points out that Jesus (peace be on him) was not killed as the result of crucifixion; he was rather saved from the Cross, dying ultimately a natural death. For if Jesus (peace be on him) was also to suffer death by murder like Zacharias, at the hands of the Jews, he would have hinted in these verses at his own murder. If it is urged that Jesus (peace be on him) also was killed by the Jews but his being killed was not a sin on the Jews’ part, for Jesus’ death was of the nature of an atonement, the contention is hardly tenable, for in John, chap. 19, verse 11, Jesus clearly says that the Jews have been guilty of a great sin for having resolved to kill Jesus; and likewise, in many other places there is the clear hint that as a penalty for the crime of which they had been guilty against Jesus, they had deserved punishment in the sight of God.

• Matthew 23:35-36.
  ** Matthew 26:24.
  Unquote
  I think, you undestand it now, it is reasonable.

The bolded statement above is the opinion of a man who sees what he wants to see and takes a passage out of context. Nowhere does Jesus “clearly”, as the commentator says, state that the killing of the prophets stopped with Zacharias.

This whole chapter is about Jesus’ accusations of the scribes and pharisees. Here is the passage quoted above in context:

29 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites. You build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the memorials of the righteous,
30 and you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our ancestors, we would not have joined them in shedding the prophets’ blood.’
31 Thus you bear witness against yourselves that you are the children of those who murdered the prophets;
32 now fill up what your ancestors measured out!
33 You serpents, you brood of vipers, how can you flee from the judgment of Gehenna?
34 Therefore, behold, I send to you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and pursue from town to town,
35 so that there may come upon you all the righteous blood shed upon earth, from the righteous blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar.
36 Amen, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

Note that Jesus says they killed some of the prophets, not all of them. And my favorite line from this passage:

34 Therefore, behold, **I **send to you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and pursue from town to town,

Another passage where Jesus claims he is God. Afterall, who sent the prophets? God did, yet here is Jesus saying “I” sent you the prophets. Jesus is not simply a prophet, he is God, and the Jews had him put to death for blasphemy, not because they thought he was a false prophet.

 

[paarsurrey]

Hi
I was looking for something written by PromisedMessiahImamMahdi 1835-1908 himself, and I will submit it when I find that. In the meantime I would like to present my own view point on the issue:

1. Jesus had promised the adulterous Jews, the corrupt generation, to show them the Sign of Jonah in Matthew Chapter 12.
   The **sign of Jonah **is that like him Jesus would have a miraculous escape from death; Jews were used to killing the claimants of ProphetsMessengers as per Deuteronomy 13:1-5 and Deuteronomy 18:20-22:
   “But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death.”
   This shows their distorted thinking, they were given a Covenant through Moses that if they obsereved it, being an off-spring of Jacob many true ProphetsMessengers would come into them, instead of being positive and ready to be waiting of the fullfillment of this promise and accepting them and supporting them , the **corrupt clergy adopted the negative side **of it, they tried to kill them in the first place to prove them as false Prophets, this was the distortion of their mind.
2. Jesus in this scenario, promised the Sign of Jonah, whereby he tells them that the generation (of Israel) living in Jerusalem would be destroyed for their evil-deeds (35 And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.) This **decree/warning is like Jonah telling his people that God have judged them as wicked people **and they would be destroyed if they would not accept this message and improve themselves. Jesus also tells them that they have been judged as wicked generation for their crime of shedding the blood of righteous people from Abel to Zechariah, he informs them of the decree of God, which does not include Jesus’ own name (in that case he would have said from Abel to Jesus),yet we infer if they tried to kill him as they have done previously, they would fail to do so, as he would be saved, and he would go to the **lost ten tribes of Israel **who would accept him.
   Because of this, Jerusalem was in fact destroyed in due course of time.
   I think it is reasonable.
   We are just discussing things for truth, so I would avoid any contentious debate, this please remember.
   Kindly come to the issue of the thread, the Criteria of false/true prophet from OTBible for which everybody is welcome to participate.
   Thanks

Hebrews 5:7 (NIV)
7During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission.

 

[anthony022071]

Hi
I was looking for something written by PromisedMessiahImamMahdi 1835-1908 himself,

Are you capable of reading the Bible without Imam Madhi?
Or did he do all of your thinking for you?

The **sign of Jonah **is that like him Jesus would have a miraculous escape from death;

Jesus did escape from death – after he had actually died.

Hebrews 5:7 (NIV)
7During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission.

Jesus was saved by his Father from death – after he had actually died.

 

[paarsurrey]

Jesus was saved by his Father from death – after he had actually died.

Hi
That was possible if Jonah also would have been saved from death- after Jonah had actually died; it never happened, so it is a misleading notion.Please don’t mind.
Thanks

The first and primary source on “Jesus did not die on Cross” - rather Jesus was not killed on Cross and later died naturally is the pristine Word of God revealed on the PromisedMessiahImamMahdi 1835-1908.

 

[anthony022071]

Hi
That was possible if Jonah also would have been saved from death- after Jonah had actually died; it never happened, so it is a misleading notion.

It is a misleading notion that Jonah would have had to die for Jesus to have been saved from death. If what happened to Jonah was only a sign that prefigured Jesus,then it is not on the same level of greatness and importance as what happened to Jesus.

A sign points to something much greater,more important than itself.

If Jesus did not die on the cross,then Jonah cannot be a sign for Jesus,because then God would not have done anything greater or more important with Jesus than he had done with Jonah.

But if Jonah was a sign for Jesus,then what happened with Jesus
was far greater and important than what happened with Jonah.
Jesus died and rose from the dead,whereas Jonah only seemed
to be dead – he was only a sign for Jesus,not equal with Jesus.

 

[MHalsey]

Something else I just noticed about verse 34:

34 Therefore, behold, I send to you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, some of them you **will scourge **in your synagogues and pursue from town to town,

Note how Jesus is saying they **will **(future) kill and crucify. Therefore he cannot have said that the killing would end with Zacharias.

Which of the prophets was ever crucified?

 

[MHalsey]

paarsurrey;2458027:

Hi
That was possible if Jonah also would have been saved from death- after Jonah had actually died; it never happened, so it is a misleading notion.

It is a misleading notion that Jonah would have had to die for Jesus to have been saved from death. If what happened to Jonah was only a sign that prefigured Jesus,then it is not on the same level of greatness and importance as what happened to Jesus.

A sign points to something much greater,more important than itself.

If Jesus did not die on the cross,then Jonah cannot be a sign for Jesus,because then God would not have done anything greater or more important with Jesus than he had done with Jonah.

But if Jonah was a sign for Jesus,then what happened with Jesus
was far greater and important than what happened with Jonah.
Jesus died and rose from the dead,whereas Jonah only seemed
to be dead – he was only a sign for Jesus,not equal with Jesus.

Couldn’t have said it better myself.
Way to go, Anthony.

 

[paarsurrey]

Hi
The English word Prophet does not denote full meaning of the word nabî’ used in the OTBible. The word nabî’ means news, information that the Prophet receives from GodAllahYHWH, it could pertain to past or present or future by which an information or news from the unseen realm is given to the Prophet to be conveyed to the people to whom that Messenger has been sent by GodAllahYHWH. This is verifiable from the events of Jonah

1. Word of Lord came to Jonah; (please note; there was no witness except God, yet it is said that word of Lord came to Jonah) because Jonah was absolutely sure that nobody talked to him except God, he believed that it was from God.
2. Jonah was ordered by God "Go to the great city of Nineveh”, so this shows that God has chosen Jonah as His Messenger.
3. Now Jonah has a message that he has to preach; the Prophet and Messenger of God is the same person, when he faces towards God he is called a Nabî/Prophet and when he faces towards the people with a message from God he is called a Messenger.
4. God has judged about the Ninevites that they are not people of justice and peace, they have been judged by God as Wicked people (here Jonah has been informed of the conduct of the Ninevites, which belonged to past, and God’s judgment that they are Wicked people, their status at present and that if they don’t improve their conduct they would be punished, in future, Nineveh would be destroyed in forty days time: Jonah 3:4)
5. Jonah does not perform any miracles; that are not essential for a ProphetMessenger, yet he is truthful ProphetMessenger, neither could the miracles promote a Prophet to make him God, even if he would have raised a dead person to life.
   Now using the same format about Jesus we can infer following from Matthew 23:35-36:
   Jesus in this scenario, promised the Sign of Jonah ( in Matthew chapter 16, and hence we should see the things within this perspective), whereby he tells them that the generation (of Israel) living in Jerusalem would be destroyed for their evil-deeds (35 And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.)
6. This decree/warning is like Jonah telling his people that God have judged them as wicked people
7. and they would be destroyed if they would not accept this message and improve themselves. Jesus also tells them that they have been judged as wicked generation for their crime of shedding the blood of righteous people from Abel to Zechariah,
8. he informs them of the decree of God, which does not include Jesus’ own name (in that case he would have said from Abel to Jesus),
9. yet we infer if they tried to kill him as they have done previously, they would fail to do so, as he would be saved,
10. and he would go to the lost ten tribes of Israel who would accept him.
11. Because of this, Jerusalem was in fact destroyed in due course of time.
12. If miracles, even if Jonah would have shown them could not make Jonah a deity, Jesus is not a deity also for the same reason, in my opinion.

I think we are progressing towards the Criteria of false/true Prophet steadily.
Thanks

 

[paarsurrey]

Hi
We can use the same Criteria/inference of Jonah humbly submitted by me in my previous post about Noah; we see there is no harm in saying that he was a true ProphetMessenger of GodAllahYHWH.
I know my Catholic friends would have a little hesitation in this connection only because it is stated that the first person entitled nabî’ in the Old Testament is Abraham, father of the elect, the friend of God, favored with his personal communications (Genesis 20:7). The next is Moses. Yet if one peruses intently one could say that nowhere OTBible has mentioned in so many words that Noah or Adam were not Prophets of God, it is only an opinion, if Noah had the same qualities that Jonah ( a standard that Jesus himself admitted) had, we can admit/accept Noah a ProphetMessenger of God. I would like to repeat the life account of Noah to refresh memory of my Catholic friends here.
Noah did everything just as God commanded him. Genesis 6:22
The LORD then said to Noah, "Go into the ark, you and your whole family, because I have found you righteous in this generation. Genesis 6:21-22.
We infer from the above:

1. Noah was a sinless (blameless) man,
2. and that is why God chose him for his message to his people, God talked with Noah , one to one, there was no other witness required ( note this similarity with Jonah).
3. God told Noah something from the unseen realm (which only God knew) that his people have to be destroyed for their wickedness ( their wickedness pertained to the past or present) yet their destruction would be in future, all from the unseen realm, not known to Noah unless God told him so.
4. Noah obeyed God as every Chosen-One of GodAllahYHWH always does.
5. He prepared an Arch under commandment of GodAllahYHWH, though his people ridiculed him.
   You would agree, if you like though no compulsion that there are a lot of similarities in the points mentioned about Jonah submitted by me, and the points mentioned above in Noah.
   Thanks

 

[centurion50]

Noah was “blameless in his generation”, meaning he had not intermingled with the nephilim, therefore God preserved him and his family in the ark to continue the human race.

 

[paarsurrey]

Noah was “blameless in his generation”, meaning he had not intermingled with the nephilim, therefore God preserved him and his family in the ark to continue the human race.

Hi
Noah was “blameless in his generation” means he was not sinful , and was an innocent man.
Thanks

Deuteronomy 18:20-22. “But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death.”
Because of his righteousness, Jesus prayers were heard, and he was saved from killing on Cross.
Hebrews 5:7 (NIV)
7During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and **petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard **because of his reverent submission.

 

[centurion50]

Hi
Noah was “blameless in his generation” means he was not sinful , and was an innocent man.
Thanks

Deuteronomy 18:20-22. “But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death.”
Because of his righteousness, Jesus prayers were heard, and he was saved from killing on Cross.
Hebrews 5:7 (NIV)
7During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and **petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard **because of his reverent submission.

 

[centurion50]

The word “generation” in the Hebrew means blameless in his family tree, lineage, or pedigree. What sin was he blameless of? not mixing with the nephilim in marriage.

 

[paarsurrey]

Hi
GodAllahYHWH revealed on Jesus from a Word spoken to Jesus, that Jesus was a Prophet greater than Jonah, that is why he linked his status with Jonah but lesser than Moses, it is very clearly mentioned in the OTBibe:
“And there arose no more a prophet in Israel like unto Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face, in all the signs and wonders, which he sent by him, to do in the land of Egypt to Pharaoh, and to all his servants, and to his whole land, and all the mighty hand, and great miracles, which Moses did before all Israel” (Deuteronomy 34:10 sqq.)

Jesus must never have thought of being a deity due to the above, when OTBible limits his status between Jonah and Moses.The thought of deifying Jesus seems to be a brain child of my Catholic friends, in my opinion, having no basis in OTBible. Can it be described as supra-Bible?
Thanks

St. Paul the Apostle spoke this of Jesus in 1 Cor 15:
“[17] If Christ has **not been raised, your faith is futile **and you are still in your sins.”
Jesus was not killed on Cross, so no question of his being raised from the dead.

 

[centurion50]

The Word in the ENGLISH is translated from the HEBREW, it refers to his family, that’s what I’m saying, Can you tell me what sin was Noah blameless of? the key word is “generation”, you must translate it from ENGLISH to HEBREW to get the true sense Why God destroyed those people and preserved Noah.

 

[paarsurrey]

Hi
Raised from the dead- some passages from BibleMark 6:14-15 (NIV)
14 King Herod heard about this, for Jesus’ name had become well known. Some were saying, [a] “John the Baptist has been raised from the dead, and that is why miraculous powers are at work in him.”
15 Others said, “He is Elijah.”
And still others claimed, “He is a prophet, like one of the prophets of long ago.”
paarsurrey:If a righteous man is dead, and one says that he has been raised from the dead, that according to usage of the Bible means someone is like him as here they say He is a prophet, like one of the prophets of long ago, not that he is God.

**A woman who gave hospitality to Elisha, and whose son he raised to life **(2 Kings 4:32-35)
32 When Elisha reached the house, there was the boy lying dead on his couch. 33 He went in, shut the door on the two of them and prayed to the LORD. 34 Then he got on the bed and lay upon the boy, mouth to mouth, eyes to eyes, hands to hands. As he stretched himself out upon him, the boy’s body grew warm. 35 Elisha turned away and walked back and forth in the room and then got on the bed and stretched out upon him once more. The boy sneezed seven times and opened his eyes.
paarsurrey:Here, one could see neither Elisha becomes God nor the child who was raised becomes God. In fact the child was near-dead and he gained consciousness as did Jesus, he was delivered from Cross in near-dead position and gained consciousness in the tomb where he was laid]

Raised from the dead by Elijah (1 Kings 17:17-23)
17 Some time later the son of the woman who owned the house became ill. He grew worse and worse, and finally stopped breathing. 18 She said to Elijah, “What do you have against me, man of God? Did you come to remind me of my sin and kill my son?”
19 “Give me your son,” Elijah replied. He took him from her arms, carried him to the upper room where he was staying, and laid him on his bed. 20 Then he cried out to the LORD, “O LORD my God, have you brought tragedy also upon this widow I am staying with, by causing her son to die?” 21 Then he stretched himself out on the boy three times and cried to the LORD, “O LORD my God, let this boy’s life return to him!”
22 The LORD heard Elijah’s cry, and the boy’s life returned to him, and he lived. 23 Elijah picked up the child and carried him down from the room into the house. He gave him to his mother and said, “Look, your son is alive!”
paarsurrey:Here also neither Elijah becomes God nor the child.
So, neither the one who raised somebody from the near-dead becomes God nor the one who is raised, and it is all from Bible.
Thanks

Because of his righteousness, Jesus prayers were heard, and he was saved from killing on Cross.
Hebrews 5:7 (NIV)
7During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission.Unquote
Jesus was not killed on Cross, therefore no question of his becoming raised from the dead literally and physically.

 

[adrift]

Hi
Raised from the dead- some passages from BibleMark 6:14-15 (NIV)

.

Please note that all these raised from the dead passages first ask from intercession with God and then God acting through the prophet restored life.
Jesus rose on His own power.

Matthew 28

6
4 He is not here, for He has been raised just as He said. Come and see the place where He lay.
7
Then go quickly and tell His disciples, 'He has been raised from the dead, and He is going before you to Galilee; there you will see Him.’ Behold, I have told you."

 

[anthony022071]

anthony022071;2458175:

Couldn’t have said it better myself.
Way to go, Anthony.

Thanks for the compliment.

 

[paarsurrey]

Hi
I think nobody answered my post/question:

GodAllahYHWH revealed on Jesus from a Word spoken to Jesus, that Jesus was a Prophet greater than Jonah, that is why he linked his status with Jonah but lesser than Moses, it is very clearly mentioned in the OTBibe:
“And there arose no more a prophet in Israel like unto Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face, in all the signs and wonders, which he sent by him, to do in the land of Egypt to Pharaoh, and to all his servants, and to his whole land, and all the mighty hand, and great miracles, which Moses did before all Israel” (Deuteronomy 34:10 sqq.)

Jesus must never have thought of being a deity due to the above, when OTBible limits his status between Jonah and Moses.The thought of deifying Jesus seems to be a brain child of my Catholic friends, in my opinion, having no basis in OTBible. Can it be described as supra-Bible?
Thanks

 

[MHalsey]

Hi
I think nobody answered my post/question:

GodAllahYHWH revealed on Jesus from a Word spoken to Jesus, that Jesus was a Prophet greater than Jonah, that is why he linked his status with Jonah but lesser than Moses, it is very clearly mentioned in the OTBibe:
“And there arose no more a prophet in Israel like unto Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face, in all the signs and wonders, which he sent by him, to do in the land of Egypt to Pharaoh, and to all his servants, and to his whole land, and all the mighty hand, and great miracles, which Moses did before all Israel” (Deuteronomy 34:10 sqq.)

Jesus must never have thought of being a deity due to the above, when OTBible limits his status between Jonah and Moses.The thought of deifying Jesus seems to be a brain child of my Catholic friends, in my opinion, having no basis in OTBible. Can it be described as supra-Bible?
Thanks

This is how the quote is translated in my Bible (NJB):
10Since then, there has never been such a prophet in Israel as Moses, the man whom Yahweh knew face to face.

The passage does not make any claim that there never will be another like him or even greater. If that were true, then there is no way any Muslim could claim that Muhammad is as great as Moses. Yet we know they do.

As for proof in the Old Testament, try reading the New Testament, which is the fulfillment of the Old Testament.