J
justasking4
Guest
No.
- Status
G
guanophore
Guest
This not rhetoric, ja4, but an observation. It is one of the reasons that I keep telling you that it would be helpful to focus on the basics first. If a person has not the Apostolic understanding of sin and grace, one cannot possibly grasp a doctrine like the sinlessness of Mary.Instead of using rethoric study what the terms mean. This is what should guide you in what to believe.
You are right, it is important to study what the terms mean. This is what we do with the Church as our guide. She is the pillar and bulwark of th eTruth, so we study the terms in the light of what the Apostles taught.
S
SIA
Guest
I dont’ get it there so much as from Sacred Tradition.
However, the Apostles teach us that to be full of grace is to be without sin. We see in scripture that Mary makes herself “the handmaid of the Lord”. This is a commitment to a godly lifestyle (without sin). Also, we see our Lord testifying about her that she is not only blessed by having the privilege of being His mother, but EVEN MORE because she heard the word of God, and obeyed it. This means not sinning.
justasking4;4206967:
Poor argument.Again you speculate. The Scriptures never mention her birth or anything coming close to it.
[/quteo]
Again you make an erroneous assumption that, because you do not find something in scripture, it is “speculation”. This is not the case. The contents of the Holy Bible is not speculation. The doctrine of the hypostatic union, the Trinity, an many other Teachings of the Church are not spelled out in the Bible, but they are not “speculation” either. they are the revelation of God in Christ, which is not confined to Scripture.
But, he was not created with sin nature!
God created Adam and Eve without sin!
I agree that Christ was conceived in such a way as to not inherit a sin nature from Adam.
Since He took flesh of Mary’s flesh, that is how we know that it was not tainted.
Most of this can be found in the teachings on baptism, which washes away all sins, personal, and original. We are in a state of complete purity before God, able to be in His presence, because there is no sin to separate us.
This is also the state in which Stephen died - remember in Acts it is said he was “full of grace”? He saw heaven opened, and Jesus at the right hand of God. His soul was in a state of sinlessness and purity, with nothing separating Him from God.
This is the state in which Mary was conceived, yet she had free will, and had to choose to maintain that state of grace.
Eve was created that way too, but did not choose to maintain her state of grace.
M
Mannyfit75
Guest
It’s also a poor argument that Mary being sinful. Scripture is silent on that and if the claim that Mary did commit sin. Then Satan have victory over the Mother of Our Lord. It also belittle Mary.
A sinner is the slave of Satan. God does not will that the mother of Jesus Christ be stained with sin.
She is literally the Living Ark of the Covenant. The Ark is pure.
R
rbarcia
Guest
Christ’s saved us from the penalty of sin on the cross. He paid our debt. If Mary never sinned (or fell into a pit), then she has no debt, so the cross does not make sense for her.
**
Hebrews 9:22
In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
**
It is only through the act of the cross that we are saved.
S
SIA
Guest
Scripture is not silent on that. Scripture tells us that ALL have fallen short of God’s grace. It’s just that you like to pick and choose what Scriptures to either sanctify or burn and bury the ashes.
G
Good_Fella
Guest
Let’s not suggest like Martin Luther that we should go sin and sin boldly now that Christ has paid the penalty for our sins. :nope:
Nobody has to necessarily be a sinner because Christ died for her. Jesus told the woman caught in adultery:
“Go, and sin no more.”
Since Mary was human like the rest of us, she was implicated in the sin of Adam and Eve and in need of redemption. Yet she was redeemed in a manner different from our redemption. Unlike us she was not redeemed by being cleansed from sin. Rather she was redeemed by being preserved from contracting original sin. Whether we are cleansed from sin or prevented from contracting the stain of sin on our souls, it is by God’s gracious intervention, in view of the merits of Christ’s Passion and Death, that we are saved. The redeeming merits of Christ in Mary were preventive instead of curative, if we may draw an analogy with medical science.
Meanwhile, every human being who has ever lived before and after the atoning death of Christ is redeemed by the merits of our Lord’s precious blood. Mary was saved in anticipation of Christ’s death on the cross. Our Lord did not die in vain because his Blessed Mother was preserved free from the stain of original sin. Her Immaculate Conception could only have occured in view of the merits of Christ. No merit is attributed to Mary in her manner of redemption at the instant she was conceived. The sanctification of her soul and her freedom from the inclination to sin was a gift of the Holy Spirit in virtue of her Divine Maternity.
Our souls are initially sanctified at the moment we are baptized and become adopted children of God. Since Mary was chosen to be the Mother of our Lord, she was sanctified by the grace of God in a unique way, and she received a plentitude of actual grace that enabled her to live a personally sinless life at enmity with Satan and his offspring: sin and evil.
“I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between her seed and your seed.”
Genesis 3, 15
But he (the angel) said to me, “You will be with child and will bear a son. So take neither wine or strong drink, and eat nothing unclean. For the boy shall be consecrated to God from the womb until his death.”
Judges 13, 7
Because into a soul that plots evil wisdom enters not, nor dwells she in a body under debt of sin.
Wisdom 1, 4
When the Lord saw him coming over to look at it more closely, God called out from the bush, “Moses! Moses!” He answered, “Here I am.” God said, “Come no nearer! Remove the sandals from your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground.”
Exodus 3, 4-5
“Hail, full of grace. The Lord is with you.”
Luke 1, 28
“Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb.”
Luke 1, 42
“My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord;
my spirit rejoices in God my saviour.”
Luke 1, 46-47
God chose us in him, before the foundation of the world, to be holy and without blemish before him. In love he destined us for adoption to himself through Christ Jesus, in accord with the favour of his will, for the praise of the glory of his grace that he granted us in the beloved.
Ephesians 1, 4-6
PAX
W
wmscott
Guest
When I see these types of arguments against the Blessed Mother it is truly amazing and sad how spiritually blinded to the Truth people can be. These people will never know and experience the fullness of Gods graces because of closed minds and stubborn perceptions of what they think is truth. It’s like going through life with blinders on, having no ability to view the vastness of Gods Truth. So much of Gods wonderful world and graces are missed out on. Pray for them, I am sure that the Blessed Mother will pray for them also. That is one of my requests to Her as I pray today, “open the eyes of the spiritually blind”.
G
guanophore
Guest
R
rbarcia
Guest
This is not what we are talking about the need to repent and turn from your sins is a different topic.
John wrote:
**
1 John 1
8If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.
**
“I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between her seed and your seed.”
Genesis 3, 15
But he (the angel) said to me, “You will be with child and will bear a son. So take neither wine or strong drink, and eat nothing unclean. For the boy shall be consecrated to God from the womb until his death.”
Judges 13, 7
Because into a soul that plots evil wisdom enters not, nor dwells she in a body under debt of sin.
Wisdom 1, 4
When the Lord saw him coming over to look at it more closely, God called out from the bush, “Moses! Moses!” He answered, “Here I am.” God said, “Come no nearer! Remove the sandals from your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground.”
Exodus 3, 4-5
“Hail, full of grace. The Lord is with you.”
Luke 1, 28
“Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb.”
Luke 1, 42
“My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord;
my spirit rejoices in God my saviour.”
Luke 1, 46-47
God chose us in him, before the foundation of the world, to be holy and without blemish before him. In love he destined us for adoption to himself through Christ Jesus, in accord with the favour of his will, for the praise of the glory of his grace that he granted us in the beloved.
Ephesians 1, 4-6
PAX
None of these verses discusses the point at hand. None of them point to this special way of Mary being saved. The fact that God chose who is written in the Book of Life before the foundation of the world does not negate man’s responsibility for repent from his/her sin and put their total trust in Christ Jesus.
Obedience will be the result (because of repentance and grace), not the cause of salvation.
Luke 11
27As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out, “Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you.”
28He replied, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.”
M
Mannyfit75
Guest
A sinful Mary offends God. God’s grace save Mary from the first moment of her conception from the stains of original sin and personal sin. She is full of grace.
Many of the ECF would disagree with you for they believe Mary is pure.
“He was the ark formed of incorruptible wood. For by this is signified that His tabernacle was exempt from putridity and corruption.” Hippolytus, Orations Inillud, Dominus pascit me (ante A.D. 235).
“This Virgin Mother of the Only-begotten of God, is called Mary, worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, one of the one.” Origen, Homily 1(A.D. 244).
“Let woman praise Her, the pure Mary.” Ephraim, Hymns on the Nativity, 15:23 (A.D. 370).
“Thou alone and thy Mother are in all things fair, there is no flaw in thee and no stain in thy Mother.” Ephraem, Nisibene Hymns, 27:8 (A.D. 370).
“O noble Virgin, truly you are greater than any other greatness. For who is your equal in greatness, O dwelling place of God the Word? To whom among all creatures shall I compare you, O Virgin? You are greater than them all O Covenant, clothed with purity instead of gold! You are the Ark in which is found the golden vessel containing the true manna, that is, the flesh in which divinity resides.” Athanasius, Homily of the Papyrus of Turin, 71:216 (ante AD 373).
“Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace has made inviolate, free of every stain of sin.” Ambrose, Sermon 22:30 (A.D. 388).
“We must except the Holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom I wish to raise no question when it touches the subject of sins, out of honour to the Lord; for from Him we know what abundance of grace for overcoming sin in every particular was conferred upon her who had the merit to conceive and bear Him who undoubtedly had no sin.” Augustine, Nature and Grace,4 2[36] (A.D.415).
“As he formed her without my stain of her own, so He proceeded from her contracting no stain.” Proclus of Constantinople, Homily 1 (ante A.D. 446).
“A virgin, innocent, spotless, free of all defect, untouched, unsullied, holy in soul and body, like a lily sprouting among thorns.” Theodotus of Ancrya, Homily VI:11(ante A.D. 446).
“The angel took not the Virgin from Joseph, but gave her to Christ, to whom she was pledged from Joseph, but gave her to Christ, to whom she was pledged in the womb, when she was made.” Peter Chrysologus, Sermon 140 (A.D. 449).
“[T]he very fact that God has elected her proves that none was ever holier than Mary, if any stain had disfigured her soul, if any other virgin had been purer and holier, God would have selected her and rejected Mary.” Jacob of Sarug (ante A.D. 521).
“She is born like the cherubim, she who is of a pure, immaculate clay.” Theotokos of Livias, Panegyric for the feast of the Assumption, 5:6 (ante A.D. 650).
“Today humanity, in all the radiance of her immaculate nobility, receives its ancient beauty. The shame of sin had darkened the splendour and attraction of human nature; but when the Mother of the Fair One par excellence is born, this nature regains in her person its ancient privileges and is fashioned according to a perfect model truly worthy of God… The reform of our nature begins today and the aged world, subjected to a wholly divine transformation, receives the first fruits of the second creation.” Andrew of Crete, Sermon I, On the Birth of Mary (A.D. 733).
“[T]ruly elect, and superior to all, not by the altitude of lofty structures, but as excelling all in the greatness and purity of sublime and divine virtues, and having no affinity with sin whatever.” Germanus of Constantinople, Marracci in S. Germani Mariali (ante A.D. 733).
“O most blessed loins of Joachim from which came forth a spotless seed! O glorious womb of Anne in which a most holy offspring grew.” John of Damascus, Homily I (ante A.D. 749).
If Mary sinned then Satan has victory over the Mother of Our Lord. To me that is pure insult to God’s ability to preserve Mary from any sin.
Many of the ECF would disagree with you for they believe Mary is pure.
“He was the ark formed of incorruptible wood. For by this is signified that His tabernacle was exempt from putridity and corruption.” Hippolytus, Orations Inillud, Dominus pascit me (ante A.D. 235).
“This Virgin Mother of the Only-begotten of God, is called Mary, worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, one of the one.” Origen, Homily 1(A.D. 244).
“Let woman praise Her, the pure Mary.” Ephraim, Hymns on the Nativity, 15:23 (A.D. 370).
“Thou alone and thy Mother are in all things fair, there is no flaw in thee and no stain in thy Mother.” Ephraem, Nisibene Hymns, 27:8 (A.D. 370).
“O noble Virgin, truly you are greater than any other greatness. For who is your equal in greatness, O dwelling place of God the Word? To whom among all creatures shall I compare you, O Virgin? You are greater than them all O Covenant, clothed with purity instead of gold! You are the Ark in which is found the golden vessel containing the true manna, that is, the flesh in which divinity resides.” Athanasius, Homily of the Papyrus of Turin, 71:216 (ante AD 373).
“Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace has made inviolate, free of every stain of sin.” Ambrose, Sermon 22:30 (A.D. 388).
“We must except the Holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom I wish to raise no question when it touches the subject of sins, out of honour to the Lord; for from Him we know what abundance of grace for overcoming sin in every particular was conferred upon her who had the merit to conceive and bear Him who undoubtedly had no sin.” Augustine, Nature and Grace,4 2[36] (A.D.415).
“As he formed her without my stain of her own, so He proceeded from her contracting no stain.” Proclus of Constantinople, Homily 1 (ante A.D. 446).
“A virgin, innocent, spotless, free of all defect, untouched, unsullied, holy in soul and body, like a lily sprouting among thorns.” Theodotus of Ancrya, Homily VI:11(ante A.D. 446).
“The angel took not the Virgin from Joseph, but gave her to Christ, to whom she was pledged from Joseph, but gave her to Christ, to whom she was pledged in the womb, when she was made.” Peter Chrysologus, Sermon 140 (A.D. 449).
“[T]he very fact that God has elected her proves that none was ever holier than Mary, if any stain had disfigured her soul, if any other virgin had been purer and holier, God would have selected her and rejected Mary.” Jacob of Sarug (ante A.D. 521).
“She is born like the cherubim, she who is of a pure, immaculate clay.” Theotokos of Livias, Panegyric for the feast of the Assumption, 5:6 (ante A.D. 650).
“Today humanity, in all the radiance of her immaculate nobility, receives its ancient beauty. The shame of sin had darkened the splendour and attraction of human nature; but when the Mother of the Fair One par excellence is born, this nature regains in her person its ancient privileges and is fashioned according to a perfect model truly worthy of God… The reform of our nature begins today and the aged world, subjected to a wholly divine transformation, receives the first fruits of the second creation.” Andrew of Crete, Sermon I, On the Birth of Mary (A.D. 733).
“[T]ruly elect, and superior to all, not by the altitude of lofty structures, but as excelling all in the greatness and purity of sublime and divine virtues, and having no affinity with sin whatever.” Germanus of Constantinople, Marracci in S. Germani Mariali (ante A.D. 733).
“O most blessed loins of Joachim from which came forth a spotless seed! O glorious womb of Anne in which a most holy offspring grew.” John of Damascus, Homily I (ante A.D. 749).
If Mary sinned then Satan has victory over the Mother of Our Lord. To me that is pure insult to God’s ability to preserve Mary from any sin.
S
SIA
Guest
That is true that infants and the develpmentally disabled cannot willfully sin, but if your theory is true, then why does Scripture not shout it from the rooftops that Mary was the only human creation besides Jesus that lived a full life without committing sin? It surpasses all reasoning and logic that Mary was completely without personal sin (and original for that matter) and the Scriptures are silent on it.
M
Mannyfit75
Guest
Before the fall of man, Adam and Eve were created free of any sin. In the end, they willing decide to God against God’s commandment by eating the fruit from the Tree of Acknowledge.
Jesus as we know is the New Adam and many Early Church Fathers often said that Mary is the New Eve because she undo Eve’s disobedience by Mary’s obedience to God’s will.
He became man by the Virgin, in order that the disobedience which proceeded from the serpent might receive its destruction in the same manner in which it derived its origin. For Eve, who was a virgin and undefiled, having conceived the word of the serpent, brought forth disobedience and death. But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy, when the angel Gabriel announced the good tidings to her that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her, and the power of the Highest would overshadow her: wherefore also the Holy Thing begotten of her is the Son of God; and she replied, ‘Be it unto me according to thy word.’ And by her has He been born, to whom we have proved so many Scriptures refer, and by whom God destroys both the serpent and those angels and men who are like him; but works deliverance from death to those who repent of their wickedness and believe upon Him." Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, 100 (A.D. 155).
“[H]e was born of Mary the fair ewe.” Melito de Sardo, Easter Homily (c. A.D. 177).
“In accordance with this design, Mary the Virgin is found obedient, saying, ‘Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word.’ But Eve was disobedient; for she did not obey when as yet she was a virgin. And even as she, having indeed a husband, Adam, but being nevertheless as yet a virgin (for in Paradise ‘they were both naked, and were not ashamed,’ inasmuch as they, having been created a short time previously, had no understanding of the procreation of children: for it was necessary that they should first come to adult age, and then multiply from that time onward), having become disobedient, was made the cause of death, both to herself and to the entire human race; so also did Mary, having a man betrothed [to her], and being nevertheless a virgin, by yielding obedience, become the cause of salvation, both to herself and the whole human race. And on this account does the law term a woman betrothed to a man, the wife of him who had betrothed her, although she was as yet a virgin; thus indicating the back-reference from Mary to Eve, because what is joined together could not otherwise be put asunder than by inversion of the process by which these bonds of union had arisen; s so that the former ties be cancelled by the latter, that the latter may set the former again at liberty… Wherefore also Luke, commencing the genealogy with the Lord, carried it back to Adam, indicating that it was He who regenerated them into the Gospel of life, and not they Him. And thus also it was that the knot of Eve’s disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. For what the virgin Eve had bound fast through unbelief, this did the virgin Mary set free through faith.” Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 3:22 (A.D. 180).
“For whereas the Word of God was without flesh, He took upon Himself the holy flesh by the holy Virgin, and prepared a robe which He wove for Himself, like a bridegroom, in the sufferings of the cross, in order that by uniting His own power with our moral body, and by mixing the incorruptible with the corruptible, and the strong with the weak, He might save perishing man.” Hippolytus, Treatise on Christ and antiChrist, 4 (A.D. 200).
S
SIA
Guest
I have been given this Catholic understanding of Mary ever since I can remember Manny and that’s fine. Problem is, it parallels Mary with divinity. I know that you and I disagree on this and that’s fine with me. I accept Mary as blessed and given grace as the Scriptures tell us, but to raise her to divine status is beyond what I can ever accept. To be Catholic is to accept what the church declares as dogma and doctrine about Mary and I could never go back to it.
G
guanophore
Guest
We read it differently.
Are you suggesting that something that cannot be found in scripture makes no sense? Quantum Theory, for example?
Do you think that Mary did not do this?
Indeed! this is how we know that she was saved before the angel came to her. She responded “I am the handmaid of the Lord”. This is perfect obedience.
Blessed “even more” are those who are obedient. Mary was blessed because she carried the Son, but even more blessed because she heard the word of God, and kept it.
S
SIA
Guest
That’s twisting what Scripture is saying.Blessed “even more” are those who are obedient. Mary was blessed because she carried the Son, but even more blessed because she heard the word of God, and kept it.
E
elvisman
Guest
Your silence speaks volumes, SIA . . .
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