Sinless Mary

[justasking4]

Ja4 it doesn’t get any clearer than this. Sin reduces grace. Mary is full of grace; therefore, she does not have sin and hasn’t been touched by it. How does one refute something so clear in the Bible?

Couple of problems with this. For one a couple of catholic bibles don’t use the phrase–" full of grace" but “favored” one:

The New American Bible
And coming to her, he said, “Hail, favored one! The Lord is with you.”

New Jerusalem Bible
He went in and said to her, ‘Rejoice, you who enjoy God’s favour! The Lord is with you.’

As far as i can tell these a newer translations

Secondly, the definition of the words Chaire kecharitomene says nothing about being sinless. Your comment about grace reducing sin even if true does not mean it makes a person sinless.

 

[Nickkname]

Couple of problems with this. For one a couple of catholic bibles don’t use the phrase–" full of grace" but “favored” one:

The New American Bible
And coming to her, he said, “Hail, favored one! The Lord is with you.”

New Jerusalem Bible
He went in and said to her, ‘Rejoice, you who enjoy God’s favour! The Lord is with you.’

As far as i can tell these a newer translations

Secondly, the definition of the words Chaire kecharitomene says nothing about being sinless. Your comment about grace reducing sin even if true does not mean it makes a person sinless.

If Mary was so full of grace that she could not have committed a sin, than how can you say she wasn’t sinless? She was full of grace - not partially full, not half-way full, but full of grace. That is what the Bible says. You want to contest the Bible now?

Furthermore, the original words are ‘full of grace’, not ‘favored one’. Different translations do not mean the Bible did not include the words full of grace - it just means some translators decided to replace them with other words. Shame on them.

The words “chair kecharitomene” translate to “full of divine grace”. Mary was so full of grace that her soul was near a god-like state; she was so holy that only God Himself was holier than her.

 

[justasking4]

guanophore;4205787]I agree! My point is that your postulation that “if I do not see it in scripture it is speculation” is spurious.

Actually, no.

Since the whole NT was produced by, for, and about Catholics there is nothing in it that contradicts Catholic teaching.

There are all kinds of things in the church that contradict the scriptures. This topic is one of the clearest examples of it.

However, we do see the doctrines clearly grounded in the Scripture. You do not, because you have rejected the Sacred Tradition, which is the lens through which we look.

Even those who defend doctrines such as Mary’s sinlessness, assumption and her queenship know that there are no direct passages to support these claims but must appeal to some kind of implicit meanings to do so.

While I agree that no doctrine should be based on speculation, and that all doctrine is grounded on the Word of God, Catholics do not limit the Word of God to the Sacred Writings.

Here again you make a statement that will be difficult to support in claiming the Word of God is not limited to Scripture.

That Word of God lives as much in those who have received the Apostolic Teachings:

"We also constantly give thanks to God for this, that when you received the word of God that you heard from us, you accepted it not as a human word but as what it really is, God’s word, which is also at work in you believers."1 Thess 2:13

For some reason, which I think is likely rebellion against authority, you believe that this Word of God that is at work in the believers somehow “disappeared” when the NT was written.

This is not about rebellion but about the truth and not being decieved. We are commanded in Scripture to be always on guard against false teachings within the church itself. The only way to follow this command is to know the Scriptures and test all things by them. That’s why the claim the church can never err is so dangerous is that it causes catholics to drop their guards and accept whatever its leaders claim to be true instead of testing all things with the Scriptures.

 

[justasking4]

Nickkname;4206719]If Mary was so full of grace that she could not have committed a sin, than how can you say she wasn’t sinless? She was full of grace - not partially full, not half-way full, but full of grace. That is what the Bible says. You want to contest the Bible now?

Here is what this phrase means in the Greek text:To grace, highly honor or greatly favor. In the NT spoken only of the divine favor, as to the virgin Mary in Luke 1:28, kecharitōménē, the perf. pass. part. sing. fem. The verb charitóō declares the virgin Mary to be highly favored, approved of God to conceive the Son of God through the Holy Spirit. The only other use of charitóō is in Eph. 1:6 where believers are said to be “accepted in the beloved,” i.e., objects of grace.

To say that full of grace means she could not have committed sin goes far beyond what the word means.

Furthermore, the original words are ‘full of grace’, not ‘favored one’. Different translations do not mean the Bible did not include the words full of grace - it just means some translators decided to replace them with other words. Shame on them.

These are scholars who study the texts and seek to understand what these words mean and how they should be translated irrespective of church theology. Secondly, notice the preface of the The New Jerusalem Bible
"The New Jerusalem Bible (NJB) is a Catholic translation of the Bible published in 1985. The New Jerusalem Bible (NJB) has become the most widely used Roman Catholic Bible outside of the United States. It has the imprimatur of Cardinal George Basil Hume."

The words “chair kecharitomene” translate to “full of divine grace”. Mary was so full of grace that her soul was near a god-like state; she was so holy that only God Himself was holier than her

.
You are reading into these words far beyond what is meant.

 

[PerryJ]

Couple of problems with this. For one a couple of catholic bibles don’t use the phrase–" full of grace" but “favored” one:

The New American Bible
And coming to her, he said, “Hail, favored one! The Lord is with you.”

New Jerusalem Bible
He went in and said to her, ‘Rejoice, you who enjoy God’s favour! The Lord is with you.’

As far as i can tell these a newer translations

Secondly, the definition of the words Chaire kecharitomene says nothing about being sinless. Your comment about grace reducing sin even if true does not mean it makes a person sinless.

The traditional and more literal rendering of the phrase is “Hail, full of grace” as it is in the Douay, Confraternity and Knox Bibles. If one takes the words back to Greek this can not be disputed.

 

[PerryJ]

Here is what this phrase means in the Greek text:To grace, highly honor or greatly favor. In the NT spoken only of the divine favor, as to the virgin Mary in Luke 1:28, kecharitōménē, the perf. pass. part. sing. fem. The verb charitóō declares the virgin Mary to be highly favored, approved of God to conceive the Son of God through the Holy Spirit. The only other use of charitóō is in Eph. 1:6 where believers are said to be “accepted in the beloved,” i.e., objects of grace.

To say that full of grace means she could not have committed sin goes far beyond what the word means.

These are scholars who study the texts and seek to understand what these words mean and how they should be translated irrespective of church theology. Secondly, notice the preface of the The New Jerusalem Bible
"The New Jerusalem Bible (NJB) is a Catholic translation of the Bible published in 1985. The New Jerusalem Bible (NJB) has become the most widely used Roman Catholic Bible outside of the United States. It has the imprimatur of Cardinal George Basil Hume."

.
You are reading into these words far beyond what is meant.

The interpetation of Ephesians has already been proven against. Just because one ignores the first couple of posts does not mean one can bring it up again and think it is now correct.

 

[guanophore]

There are all kinds of things in the church that contradict the scriptures. This topic is one of the clearest examples of it.

It always seems that way to those who do not understand or accept the Apostolic teaching. However, the NT was derived 100% from Catholic teaching, and that is why there is no contradiction. They both came from the same Source.

I wonder why it is so hard to believe that God could create a sinless person. No one seems to have a problem with Adam and Eve being created without original sin.

Mary is an example of what God wants for all of us - full of grace - without sin.

Even those who defend doctrines such as Mary’s sinlessness, assumption and her queenship know that there are no direct passages to support these claims but must appeal to some kind of implicit meanings to do so.

I agree. I think that the Marian doctrines are difficult to show from scripture. I consider the evidence scant in comparison to many other doctrines, such as the Trinity, a word also not found in scripture, defined by the Church, and accepted all over the world, though most people don’t realize it came from Sacred Tradition.

Here again you make a statement that will be difficult to support in claiming the Word of God is not limited to Scripture.

Why would that be difficult? We even have Scripture testifying to it! 2 Tim 2:9-10 “But the word of God is not chained.”

Not even to a Sacred Scroll!

This is not about rebellion but about the truth and not being decieved.[/qutoe]

Both, I think.
justasking4;4206725:

We are commanded in Scripture to be always on guard against false teachings within the church itself.

The fulfillment of such a command would require one to be in full communion with the Church. Since you apparently have never been, and are now steeped in the very falsehoods that are being warned against by the Apostle, then you are in an impossible position to judge.

The only way to follow this command is to know the Scriptures and test all things by them.

I believe that you really do sincerely wish to be able to follow this command. Since you are not in communion with the Church that Jesus founded, you are not authorized to make such a judgement. You have appointed yourself judge over us, and you are using a flawed understanding of the documents produced by the Church that Christ founded to support your condemnation.

That’s why the claim the church can never err is so dangerous is that it causes catholics to drop their guards and accept whatever its leaders claim to be true instead of testing all things with the Scriptures.

I can agree with your point. The charism of infallibility does have the potential to be “dangerous”. However, since Jesus is the Head, and the Soul of the Church is the Holy Spirit, she will be preserved from error. Not all her leaders will be, I am sure. Men err.

However, all these points are way off topic. Whenever the subject of Mary comes up, it seems to trigger a machine gun like spray of these bullets - always the same ones. It is as if there were a relfex, ingrained by past hurt, that goes off when triggered.

Do you believe that God wants mankind to be sinless?

Even if you deny that He created Mary as the new Eve, don’t you think He desires to have humanity the way He created us? Without sin?

 

[guanophore]

Here is what this phrase means in the Greek text:To grace, highly honor or greatly favor. In the NT spoken only of the divine favor, as to the virgin Mary in Luke 1:28, kecharitōménē, the perf. pass. part. sing. fem. The verb charitóō declares the virgin Mary to be highly favored, approved of God to conceive the Son of God through the Holy Spirit. The only other use of charitóō is in Eph. 1:6 where believers are said to be “accepted in the beloved,” i.e., objects of grace.

To say that full of grace means she could not have committed sin goes far beyond what the word means.

I agree. the Church does not teach that Mary could not have committed a sin. The Church teaches that she chose not to sin. But, this was easier for her than for the rest of us, because like Eve, she was created without concupiscence (the effect of original sin that makes us tend toward wrongdoing).

Do you believe it is possible to refrain from sin?

These are scholars who study the texts and seek to understand what these words mean and how they should be translated irrespective of church theology. Secondly, notice the preface of the The New Jerusalem Bible

"The New Jerusalem Bible (NJB) is a Catholic translation of the Bible published in 1985. The New Jerusalem Bible (NJB) has become the most widely used Roman Catholic Bible outside of the United States. It has the imprimatur of Cardinal George Basil Hume."
.
You are reading into these words far beyond what is meant.

No, it is the other way around. The words represent the faith of the Church who wrote them. The Apostles taught that to be full of grace is to be without sin.

 

[justasking4]

guanophore;4206851]
Originally Posted by justasking4
There are all kinds of things in the church that contradict the scriptures. This topic is one of the clearest examples of it.

guanophore;
It always seems that way to those who do not understand or accept the Apostolic teaching. However, the NT was derived 100% from Catholic teaching, and that is why there is no contradiction. They both came from the same Source.

You can say that there is no contradiction between catholic teachings and Scripture but its impossible to demonstrate it with the topics we have discussed. This topic of Mary being sinless and the phrase in Luke 1:28 is a case in point. The definition does not even come close to meaning to mean without sin. That is a reading into the word what is not there.

I wonder why it is so hard to believe that God could create a sinless person. No one seems to have a problem with Adam and Eve being created without original sin.

The issue is not what God could do but “did He do so” in the case of Mary? We have no indication from Scripture that He made her without sin. Scripture never says she is some kind of exception. Rather it presents her just as it does all fallen humanity.

Mary is an example of what God wants for all of us - full of grace - without sin.

Mary is not this kind of example for us since the Scriptures never present her this way.

 

[justasking4]

guanophore;4206869]
Originally Posted by justasking4
Here is what this phrase means in the Greek text:To grace, highly honor or greatly favor. In the NT spoken only of the divine favor, as to the virgin Mary in Luke 1:28, kecharitōménē, the perf. pass. part. sing. fem. The verb charitóō declares the virgin Mary to be highly favored, approved of God to conceive the Son of God through the Holy Spirit. The only other use of charitóō is in Eph. 1:6 where believers are said to be “accepted in the beloved,” i.e., objects of grace.

To say that full of grace means she could not have committed sin goes far beyond what the word means.

guanophore
I agree. the Church does not teach that Mary could not have committed a sin. The Church teaches that she chose not to sin.

Where in Scripture do you get the idea that she chose not to sin?

But, this was easier for her than for the rest of us, because like Eve, she was created without concupiscence (the effect of original sin that makes us tend toward wrongdoing).

Again you speculate. The Scriptures never mention her birth or anything coming close to it.

Do you believe it is possible to refrain from sin?

No for the mere fact we are all decedants of Adam and inherit his sin nature. See Romans 5:12. This is universal for all of mankind after the fall. The only One it does not apply to is Christ Who was conceived in such a way as not to inherit a sin nature from Adam.

Originally Posted by justasking4
These are scholars who study the texts and seek to understand what these words mean and how they should be translated irrespective of church theology. Secondly, notice the preface of the The New Jerusalem Bible
“The New Jerusalem Bible (NJB) is a Catholic translation of the Bible published in 1985. The New Jerusalem Bible (NJB) has become the most widely used Roman Catholic Bible outside of the United States. It has the imprimatur of Cardinal George Basil Hume.”
.
You are reading into these words far beyond what is meant.

guanophore
No, it is the other way around. The words represent the faith of the Church who wrote them. The Apostles taught that to be full of grace is to be without sin.

Where do the apostles teach that to be full of grace is to be without sin?

 

[PerryJ]

You can say that there is no contradiction between catholic teachings and Scripture but its impossible to demonstrate it with the topics we have discussed. This topic of Mary being sinless and the phrase in Luke 1:28 is a case in point. The definition does not even come close to meaning to mean without sin. That is a reading into the word what is not there.
.

This statement ignores the other two pages of scripture that supports Mary being sinless. It is not one verse or one word that supports our belief. It is throughout the Bible. Do you want me to post it all again?

It is certainly more substantial than the Trinity support.

 

[Good_Fella]

Mary is not this kind of example for us since the Scriptures never present her this way.

“My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord!”
Luke 1, 46

“Rather blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it.”
Luke 11, 28

PAX :coffeeread:

 

[guanophore]

You can say that there is no contradiction between catholic teachings and Scripture but its impossible to demonstrate it with the topics we have discussed.

I agree. The error of Sola Scriptura makes many things impossible. Doctrinal unity being the most problematic.

This topic of Mary being sinless and the phrase in Luke 1:28 is a case in point. The definition does not even come close to meaning to mean without sin. That is a reading into the word what is not there.

I believe that you cannot see it, since you have not received the Apostolic teaching. You did not answer my question, though. Why does it seem so impossible that God woudl create another woman, like Eve, without sin?

The issue is not what God could do but “did He do so” in the case of Mary? We have no indication from Scripture that He made her without sin. Scripture never says she is some kind of exception. Rather it presents her just as it does all fallen humanity.

I think this is in the eye of the beholder. It seems this way to you because you are reading about her with your anti-Catholic lenses on your face. You can’t help that, I know.

On the contrary, Scripture presents Mary as a unique human being, made the recipient of a gift no one ever has, or ever will have. She is greeted by the angel with a greeting used for no one else.

She is most definitely an exception. No one else is overshadowed by the HS in the way she was. No one else is inextricably joined with the ministry of Christ as she is. Why must this be a problem? Can we not each be satisfied with the gifts that are given to us? Must we rail against others that are given different gifts? Should we not be satisfied that our names are written in the book of life?

Mary is not this kind of example for us since the Scriptures never present her this way.

You are wrong about that, ja4. Everyone who is written about is for our instruction:

1 Cor 10:10-11
11 These things happened to them to serve as an example, and they were written down to instruct us,"

When she says “Do whatever He tells you”, there is no better example in life to follow than this. If everyone followed just this one liner from Mary, it would be a much better world.

 

[justasking4]

This statement ignores the other two pages of scripture that supports Mary being sinless. It is not one verse or one word that supports our belief. It is throughout the Bible. Do you want me to post it all again?

It is certainly more substantial than the Trinity support.

For now lets stay what this phrase “full of grace” or “favored one” means. What i have shown by the meaning of the term in how it is used in the Greek text is that it does not even mention anything about being sinless. Since this is cannot be refuted it makes no sense to claim this term means she was without sin in any way.

 

[guanophore]

Where in Scripture do you get the idea that she chose not to sin?

I dont’ get it there so much as from Sacred Tradition.

However, the Apostles teach us that to be full of grace is to be without sin. We see in scripture that Mary makes herself “the handmaid of the Lord”. This is a commitment to a godly lifestyle (without sin). Also, we see our Lord testifying about her that she is not only blessed by having the privilege of being His mother, but EVEN MORE because she heard the word of God, and obeyed it. This means not sinning.

Again you speculate. The Scriptures never mention her birth or anything coming close to it.
[/quteo]

Again you make an erroneous assumption that, because you do not find something in scripture, it is “speculation”. This is not the case. The contents of the Holy Bible is not speculation. The doctrine of the hypostatic union, the Trinity, an many other Teachings of the Church are not spelled out in the Bible, but they are not “speculation” either. they are the revelation of God in Christ, which is not confined to Scripture.
justasking4;4206967:

No for the mere fact we are all decedants of Adam and inherit his sin nature.

But, he was not created with sin nature!

God created Adam and Eve without sin!

See Romans 5:12. This is universal for all of mankind after the fall. The only One it does not apply to is Christ Who was conceived in such a way as not to inherit a sin nature from Adam.

I agree that Christ was conceived in such a way as to not inherit a sin nature from Adam.

Since He took flesh of Mary’s flesh, that is how we know that it was not tainted.

Where do the apostles teach that to be full of grace is to be without sin?

Most of this can be found in the teachings on baptism, which washes away all sins, personal, and original. We are in a state of complete purity before God, able to be in His presence, because there is no sin to separate us.

This is also the state in which Stephen died - remember in Acts it is said he was “full of grace”? He saw heaven opened, and Jesus at the right hand of God. His soul was in a state of sinlessness and purity, with nothing separating Him from God.

This is the state in which Mary was conceived, yet she had free will, and had to choose to maintain that state of grace.

Eve was created that way too, but did not choose to maintain her state of grace.

 

[Good_Fella]

Couple of problems with this. For one a couple of catholic bibles don’t use the phrase–" full of grace" but “favored” one:

The New American Bible
And coming to her, he said, “Hail, favored one! The Lord is with you.”

New Jerusalem Bible
He went in and said to her, ‘Rejoice, you who enjoy God’s favour! The Lord is with you.’

As far as i can tell these a newer translations

Secondly, the definition of the words Chaire kecharitomene says nothing about being sinless. Your comment about grace reducing sin even if true does not mean it makes a person sinless.

Theologically, being in God’s favour could mean being in a state of sanctifying grace, which Adam and Eve forfeited when they fell from God’s grace and incurred his disfavour. Someone who enjoys God’s favour and friendship is not in a state of sin or sinful. The NAB and NJB have this understanding of the phrase " to be in God’s favour" in mind. Do not presume that the biblical scholars of these new Catholic versions have denied or rejected Sacred Tradition and the teachings of the Magisterium.

Are you affirming that one is sinful while in a state of grace? Mary was ever-sinless in her position with God the Father through the Holy Spirit. One aspect of grace is the state of sanctification, the ontological condition of being holy and blameless in the sight of God. Mary wasn’t sinful in nature to begin with since she was conceived preserved free from the stain of original sin. God’s sanctifying grace was always with her from the moment God fashioned her soul, and she never fell from God’s grace by the influence of the Holy Spirit. Mary fully cooperated with God’s actual graces throughout her entire life, so that she never committed any personal venial or mortal sins. The Father willed that the mother of his Only-begotten Son should be at complete enmity with Satan together with her divine offspring.

PAX :coffeeread:

 

[guanophore]

For now lets stay what this phrase “full of grace” or “favored one” means. What i have shown by the meaning of the term in how it is used in the Greek text is that it does not even mention anything about being sinless. Since this is cannot be refuted it makes no sense to claim this term means she was without sin in any way.

It only makes no sense to a person who has little understanding of the relationship between grace, and sin.

 

[justasking4]

Originally Posted by justasking4
For now lets stay what this phrase “full of grace” or “favored one” means. What i have shown by the meaning of the term in how it is used in the Greek text is that it does not even mention anything about being sinless. Since this is cannot be refuted it makes no sense to claim this term means she was without sin in any way.

guanophore
It only makes no sense to a person who has little understanding of the relationship between grace, and sin.

Instead of using rethoric study what the terms mean. This is what should guide you in what to believe.

 

[PerryJ]

Instead of using rethoric study what the terms mean. This is what should guide you in what to believe.

I ask this on another post; but it applies here also. You believe in Jerome’s refutation of the DCs. Jerome specifically support Mary being Sinless. If you take Jerome’s thoughts on the DCs I am assuming that you would believe his thoughts concerning Mary. Do you accept his belief in Mary?

 

[PerryJ]

ja4,

You have beenn proven wrong time and again on this thread and others. As I stated on the other thread I hope you take the time to seriously look at the Bible and all the evidence we have provided you and come to the fullness of the truth.