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ILO
Guest
Homer,
I’m not sure what you mean here. Did God appear to you (perhaps as a burning bush?) and say that the Bible you had in your hands was His inspired word? If not, how did He say it?
ILO
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I’m not sure what you mean here. Did God appear to you (perhaps as a burning bush?) and say that the Bible you had in your hands was His inspired word? If not, how did He say it?
ILO
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SPH1
Guest
Sorry, Christopher. It appears I misread your post.
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homer
Guest
SPH1: (Mary’s sinlessness was a gift from God, a singular act of Grace. Not because of her own person/nature/power. As we all know, one cannot boast about grace.
(Since Mary’s sinlessness was due to divine help and not her own power, it’s possible that even she came short of the glory of God.))
Where do you get this from?! What is your reference?! How can you proove it?! Please do tell me where this is located in the Bible.
(Since Mary’s sinlessness was due to divine help and not her own power, it’s possible that even she came short of the glory of God.))
Where do you get this from?! What is your reference?! How can you proove it?! Please do tell me where this is located in the Bible.
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SteveG
Guest
Where in the bible does it say that the bible is the sole authority for faith? And where in the bible does it give a list of what books should be in the bible? Show us that, and you may have a point. If you can’t, you really are only using your own interpretion of the bible as your authority, which means you are your own authority.
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go_Leafs_go
Guest
Silmarillion:
ALso, the point about the jungle, is an analogy, it’s not going to be specifically in the bible, you need to use reason, and you need faith, fullness of faith.
WELL SAID, Homer, where in the Bible is the word Holy Trinity, where is it explained?
ALso, the point about the jungle, is an analogy, it’s not going to be specifically in the bible, you need to use reason, and you need faith, fullness of faith.
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SPH1
Guest
Homer,
I was just pointing out that I see a difference between Mary’s sinlessness and that of Christ.
I was just pointing out that I see a difference between Mary’s sinlessness and that of Christ.
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VociMike
Guest
I thought the same thing when I saw that.
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homer
Guest
Silmarillion i don’t know what to say, ur doubting your own Bible saying the word of God is not enough for you! Anyway i will show you some verses hoping that you will accept the word God present in the Bible instead of following the traditions of men.
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. (John 5:39)
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. (2 Timothy 3:16, 17)
And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. (2 Timothy 3:15)
These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. (Acts 17:11)
Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. (Matthew 24:35)
Seek ye out of the book of the LORD, and read: no one of these shall fail, none shall want her mate: for my mouth it hath commanded, and his spirit it hath gathered them. (Isaiah 34:16)
The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever. (Isaiah 40:8)
Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand. (Revelation 1:3)
Why do you try to add to the Bible the traditions of men.
But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? (Matthew 15:3)
And finally:
For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book. And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. (Revelation 22:18, 19)
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. (John 5:39)
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. (2 Timothy 3:16, 17)
And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. (2 Timothy 3:15)
These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. (Acts 17:11)
Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. (Matthew 24:35)
Seek ye out of the book of the LORD, and read: no one of these shall fail, none shall want her mate: for my mouth it hath commanded, and his spirit it hath gathered them. (Isaiah 34:16)
The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever. (Isaiah 40:8)
Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand. (Revelation 1:3)
Why do you try to add to the Bible the traditions of men.
But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? (Matthew 15:3)
And finally:
For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book. And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. (Revelation 22:18, 19)
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homer
Guest
SPH1 i know what is your point but my question is how do you support it? Where do these ideas come from?
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ILO
Guest
Homer,
Could you please respond to my post above? Thank you.
ILO
Could you please respond to my post above? Thank you.
ILO
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MariaG
Guest
Homer,
I do not doubt the Bible. But the question is this: How do you know what should count as the inspired word of God? You quote scripture to give your pont, but who did God tell was His inspired word so you can have Scripture to quote?
I do not doubt the Bible. But the question is this: How do you know what should count as the inspired word of God? You quote scripture to give your pont, but who did God tell was His inspired word so you can have Scripture to quote?
G
go_Leafs_go
Guest
Homer, another thing, why don’t you follow Jesus’s command and wash peoples feet? Why do you celebrate Mass (or worship) on Sunday? What is your justification for this? By What Authority (isn’t that a book?)
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Richard_Lamb
Guest
there are to many points here to go into but may I suggest reading this article…
catholic.com/library/Immaculate_Conception_and_Assum.asp
they addrewss this pretty good…remember if God went into so much detail into the creation of the ark of the old Covenant conatining the word of God, ten commandments, the mana in the dessert and the staff of Aron, and ark that was overshadoed by the spirit of God,
How much more would he do for the ark of the New Covenant Mary, who carried the living word of God and was similarly overshadowed by the Holy Spirit…
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SteveG
Guest
You utterly misunderstood my point. I think the bible is the word of God. But it is not the SOLE rule of faith, nor does it claim to be
Agreed. OK, so where here does it say that ONLY in the scriptures?
It is all these things, yet this doesn’t make the claim that it is the SOLE authority. It says that scripture is PROFITABLE, NOT EXLUSIVE for such things. This verse does not preclude other sources as authoritative. And in fact New Testament itself declares the Church to be “the pillar and foundation of the truth” (1 Tim. 3:15). The Church you see, not scripture. BESIDES the fact that at the time Timothy was written, the entire NT had not even been composed yet, so what scripture was Paul referring too? Likely the OT. This simply can’t bear the weight you put on it.
It’s the same pattern. You tell me the wonderful things about scripture to which I agree wholeheartedly, but…where does this make or claime exlusive SOLE authority for itself.
These all fall in the same category. You don’t have to convince me of the inerrancy, beauty, truth, etc. of scripture. I am asking you to show me where it claims SOLE authority in the life of th faithful.
Read this…
catholic.com/library/Scripture_and_Tradition.asp
…in order to understand the true role of scripture and tradition.
And finally:
Not sure if your trying to Scare me here
but one, it still doesn’t show exclusivity AND second it illustrates a real ignorance of biblical history. You read the Bible as a nicely laid out book from beginning to end, but it was neither composed nor canonized this way. When John wrote that the NT and certainly not the entire bible didn’t exist in the format you can buy at your local Christian bookstore today. You apply this phrase to the whole of the bible when the book of Revelations itself was often in dispute as to being one of the Canonized books. Not until the 4th century was the bible you know and love today put together. By a Catholic council noless. In studying the bible, one need know both history and context. To take it out of those parameters is to use and abuse if for ones own desiresIn Christ Jesus
Steve
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Brendan
Guest
Homer,
Prove to me they are ‘traditions of men’ and not the Divinely Inspired Tradition that Paul spoke of.
In fact, can you outline which of Paul’s traditions you follow that are not in his Epistles. You are commanded to hold to them, so which traditions taught by word to you hold to?
Y
Yirmeyahu
Guest
And there are also many other things which Jesus did, which if they were written in detail, I suppose that even the world itself would not contain the books that would be written. [John 20:25]
I write so that you will know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth. [1 Tim 3:15]
The Bible says a lot of things but it is not everything. I hope that these verses help.
To understand the concept of Mary being sinless, one has to understand the concept of the Ark of the Covenant. The OT is revealed in the NT.
If anyone of you has the ability to make your mother sinless, would you? I certainly would but I cannot. God, on the other hand, can! To have a God with a sinful mother would be unthinkable. He is all HOLY. Why should His vessel be unholy?
I write so that you will know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth. [1 Tim 3:15]
The Bible says a lot of things but it is not everything. I hope that these verses help.
To understand the concept of Mary being sinless, one has to understand the concept of the Ark of the Covenant. The OT is revealed in the NT.
If anyone of you has the ability to make your mother sinless, would you? I certainly would but I cannot. God, on the other hand, can! To have a God with a sinful mother would be unthinkable. He is all HOLY. Why should His vessel be unholy?
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space_ghost
Guest
Mary was sinless… I know some just can’t believe in Christ resurection unless they can put their hands in his side or feel the nail wounds in his hands… you will just have to accept that God exist with no more evidence than that of the writings of people with whom you disagree on other beliefs… God does exist, and you cannot prove it too me if I refuse to believe unless I see… If I don’t accept your reference of authority then you can prove nothing to me… God gave authority to Peter, don’t believe if you wish, he told Peter what you say goes… infact the Devil himself cannot prevail against the wishes of Peter… don’t believe if you wish… He’s only doing as Jesus himself commanded him to do… don’t believe if you wish… Please don’t argue the infallibility of Peter and his decendants since it was Peter and his decendants that wrote and interpreted the reference that you choose to refute that with which you don’t agree…peace be with you and hopefully truth will find you, i’m not sure you can it!, but i do believe in miracles… 
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SPH1
Guest
Mary’s sinlessness originates from a singular act of God: grace. She was “full of grace”, as Luke says. It was a gift.
I don’t believe that Christ’s sinlessness was an act of grace; not a gift from God. Rather, Christ’s sinlessness originates because he is God: from his own person/nature/power.
Kind of like the difference between Mary’s Assumption and Christ’s Ascension.
Mary didn’t Assume into Heaven by her own power. Rather, it was by God’s power.
Christ, on the other hand, Ascended into Heaven by his own power.
Bottom line: Christ is God and Mary isn’t.
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montanaman
Guest
While I’m enjoying this wonderful discussion about sola scriptura, (though it’s usually worthless for people who believe the Holy Spirit dropped the Bible in Protestant form from the sky), hasn’t anyone brought up the passage where Mary is greeted with “Hail, full of grace?” In Greek, that “full of grace” means FULL OF GRACE. Not half, not three-quarters, but full. THAT is a good Biblical reference for her being sinless.
I’m sure the Greek scholars on here can do better with this than I.
I’m sure the Greek scholars on here can do better with this than I.
J
JPrejean
Guest
homer:
You have picked a truly odd collection of Scriptures to argue for Scriptural sufficiency.
John 5:39, 2 Tim. 3:15-17, Acts 17:11, and Isa. 34:16 all refer to the Old Testament. If the Old Testament is sufficient, why do you bother with the New Testament?
Isa. 40:8 – What is the definition of the term translated as “word?”
“speech, word, speaking” biblestudytools.net/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=01697&version=kjv
Doesn’t sound like it’s limited to writing to me.
Both Rev 1:3 and 22:18-19 refer to “this prophecy” and “this book,” which obviously means “The Book of Revelations.”
Basically, you haven’t come up with one verse to prove your point, but you have also contradicted the Bible on the subject of tradition.
Traditions of men (Matt. 15:3) are different than apostolic traditions, which we are commanded to follow:
2 Thes. 2
[15] So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.
So basically, your statement that something is either in the Bible or man’s tradition is false from the words of Scripture itself. The Bible says that there are traditions taught by mouth that must be obeyed.
You have picked a truly odd collection of Scriptures to argue for Scriptural sufficiency.
John 5:39, 2 Tim. 3:15-17, Acts 17:11, and Isa. 34:16 all refer to the Old Testament. If the Old Testament is sufficient, why do you bother with the New Testament?
Isa. 40:8 – What is the definition of the term translated as “word?”
“speech, word, speaking” biblestudytools.net/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=01697&version=kjv
Doesn’t sound like it’s limited to writing to me.
Both Rev 1:3 and 22:18-19 refer to “this prophecy” and “this book,” which obviously means “The Book of Revelations.”
Basically, you haven’t come up with one verse to prove your point, but you have also contradicted the Bible on the subject of tradition.
Traditions of men (Matt. 15:3) are different than apostolic traditions, which we are commanded to follow:
2 Thes. 2
[15] So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.
So basically, your statement that something is either in the Bible or man’s tradition is false from the words of Scripture itself. The Bible says that there are traditions taught by mouth that must be obeyed.
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