Sinless Mary

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montanaman:
While I’m enjoying this wonderful discussion about sola scriptura, (though it’s usually worthless for people who believe the Holy Spirit dropped the Bible in Protestant form from the sky), hasn’t anyone brought up the passage where Mary is greeted with “Hail, full of grace?” In Greek, that “full of grace” means FULL OF GRACE. Not half, not three-quarters, but full. THAT is a good Biblical reference for her being sinless…
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The problem here Is that Homer is not interested in a discussion on this issue. He is simply creating threads (usually on Marian topics) and spouting the ‘Where’s that in the bible.’ line in order to ‘enlighten’ us Catholics. On each thread, once challenged on sola scriptura, he drops off the thread and goes to start another one to ask, ‘where’s that in the bible’. I think dialogue may be fruitless in this case.
 
homer said:
Christopher, i know the Bible because God said so and not because the church said so. Your reply has the same problem, you are giving authority to man instead of giving it to God. So if the early church decided that the Bible should not be published,then the Bible will not be available today?! (Of course it wouldn’t but i want to show that the decision is not in the hand of the church). It’s the will of God to give us the Holy Bible through the Holy Spirit.

In fact, the main point (problem) is that what Phil is discussing is not mentioned or supported by the Holy Bible. Everything we know about the Christ and Christianity is present in the Holy Bible and every opinion supported by traditions is man made.
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When did God says the Bible is God’s word? Did he appear to you personally or something?
 
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homer:
Silmarillion i don’t know what to say, ur doubting your own Bible saying the word of God is not enough for you! Anyway i will show you some verses hoping that you will accept the word God present in the Bible instead of following the traditions of men.

Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. (John 5:39)

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. (2 Timothy 3:16, 17)

And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. (2 Timothy 3:15)

These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. (Acts 17:11)

Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. (Matthew 24:35)

Seek ye out of the book of the LORD, and read: no one of these shall fail, none shall want her mate: for my mouth it hath commanded, and his spirit it hath gathered them. (Isaiah 34:16)

The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever. (Isaiah 40:8)

Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand. (Revelation 1:3)

Why do you try to add to the Bible the traditions of men.

But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? (Matthew 15:3)

And finally:

For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book. And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. (Revelation 22:18, 19)
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Thats fine…but you are still missing the point…listen:

How do you know that those verses in your Bible are supposed to be in your Bible? You seem to be engaging in circular reasoning.
 
The problem here Is that Homer is not interested in a discussion on this issue. He is simply creating threads (usually on Marian topics) and spouting the ‘Where’s that in the bible.’ line in order to ‘enlighten’ us Catholics. On each thread, once challenged on sola scriptura, he drops off the thread and goes to start another one to ask, ‘where’s that in the bible’. I think dialogue may be fruitless in this case.
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You nailed it. Homer disappears after he self-righteously quotes his little bits of Scripture out of context. Also, you can tell he’s pretty young. I wouldn’t expect any real dialogue with him.
 
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montanaman:
While I’m enjoying this wonderful discussion about sola scriptura, (though it’s usually worthless for people who believe the Holy Spirit dropped the Bible in Protestant form from the sky), hasn’t anyone brought up the passage where Mary is greeted with “Hail, full of grace?” In Greek, that “full of grace” means FULL OF GRACE. Not half, not three-quarters, but full. THAT is a good Biblical reference for her being sinless.

I’m sure the Greek scholars on here can do better with this than I.
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I’m no Greek scholar but the word in Greek is “kecharitomene” meaning full of grace. There’s also some tense involved with the word that supports our claim but like I said I’m no scholar. Maybe someone else can add to this.
 
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homer:
SPH1: (Mary’s sinlessness was a gift from God, a singular act of Grace. Not because of her own person/nature/power. As we all know, one cannot boast about grace.
(Since Mary’s sinlessness was due to divine help and not her own power, it’s possible that even she came short of the glory of God.))

Where do you get this from?! What is your reference?! How can you proove it?! Please do tell me where this is located in the Bible.
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Where is this in the bible?

Genesis 3:15 "I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; "

The offspring in this verse is Jesus, no one else could there be further distance between man and the snake (devil); therefore, the woman would be Mary. Enmity is “positive, active, and typically mutual hatred”, The opposition between Jesus (offspring) and the devil’s (snake’s) is complete, he was sinless as a man on earth (and obviously remains so 😃 ) and is opposed in every way to the devil. This same sentance is applied to the woman, whose offspring is Jesus, who is Mary. 👍

Hope this helps

John
 
For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book. And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. (Revelation 22:18, 19)

Didn’t Luther take away from the Bible?

😃
 
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homer:
As a conclusion: everything i mentioned in the previous post has as a source the Holy Bible the word of God. I cannot accept the examples of the jungle … because they do not have as a reference the Holy Bible and they were invented by human beings.
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If you take Scripture - even the abridged version of the Bible - you’re going to end up with a billion different theological principles, arguments, etc. Proof? Two new Protestant denominations open per week, all claiming to hold the keys to the Holy Bible.

When the Fathers of the Church met to set a bible canon - i.e. to draw the bible together - what was their major goal? Quite simply put, it was to pull together those Scriptures which represented this thing the Church Fathers (and therefore Catholics) consider Tradition. There was great debate, and it raged on for quite a while. But it’s important to realize that Christianity was without the Holy Bible for nearly 400 years. And when it was finally pulled together, the debate was over what represented that Tradition and did not contradict it; much to the surprise of many, the Bible didn’t come off some mountain top, and I’ve always been amazed that the Reformers thought they had the authority to reject what the Church Fathers laid out for Christianity near to its conception. In terms of theology, that’s one the biggest human inventions out there.

My point with all of this is that Catholics can easily justify the veneration of Mary as it is laid out dogmatically with the Bible because hey, it’s our book. Tradition has always held that Mary was exceptional and had the benefit of certain miraculous, holy gifts, and nothing within the Bible contradicts that. But when you sever Tradition - the entire reason the guide-book called the Bible even exists as it does - then you’re fairly free to Create Your Own Vision of things.

Pax Vobiscum!
 
montanaman said:
While I’m enjoying this wonderful discussion about sola scriptura, (though it’s usually worthless for people who believe the Holy Spirit dropped the Bible in Protestant form from the sky), hasn’t anyone brought up the passage where Mary is greeted with “Hail, full of grace?” In Greek, that “full of grace” means FULL OF GRACE. Not half, not three-quarters, but full. THAT is a good Biblical reference for her being sinless.

I’m sure the Greek scholars on here can do better with this than I.
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Hi montanaman:

I looked up that verse - Luke Ch1 -

in the **Douay Rheims Bible **-online:

"And the angel being come in, said to her: Hail, full of grace the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women."

also in the New Jerusalem Bible

*"The New Jerusalem Bible (NJB) is a Catholic translation of the Bible published in 1985. The New Jerusalem Bible (NJB) has become the most widely used Roman Catholic Bible outside of the United States. It has the imprimatur of Cardinal George Basil *Hume." - quote from www.catholic.org website - Catholic Online

**28 He went in and said to her, ‘Rejoice, you who enjoy God’s favour! The Lord is with you.’ **

also in the New American Bible
from the USCCB (United States Conference of Catholic Bishops website )

**28 And coming to her, he said, “Hail, favored one! The Lord is with you.” **

Does this help?
 
There seems to be a few different translations to choose from which are all acceptable within the Catholic church?

I’m asking, as I’m not Catholic…so I don’t know for sure…just searched on what I thought would be acceptable Catholic related websites.
I’ve been reading through the posts and a question that came to mind is if Mary was indeed sinless - either pre her birth or at the moment when the angel visited her - what was the purpose of that?

I think I ‘ve seen some posts with regards to her having to be made “clean” or “pure” in preparation for her to carry the holy baby, but in God doing this, would it not take away from the very “human” factor - that was a major part of Jesus’ role here on earth?

Mary the “human”/ God the “spiritual”(holiness) = Jesus man

NICENE CREED Profession of Faith (www.catholic.org)

We believe in God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and all that is seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, one in Being with the Father. Through him all things were made. For us men and for our salvation he came down from heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit he was born of the Virgin Mary, and became man.

Why would God bother to have Him born this way, via a “human” body, if it were not that He wanted all the “human-ness” that went with it, including her doubts, her weaknesses, her sins?

God Bless
 
_Christopher said:
JasonTE said…

Where is the evidence of “people referring to Mary as a sinner long before anybody referred to her as sinless from conception?”

Let’s see some early Church writings that called her a sinner, if there are any.
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St. Thomas Aquinas
 
Mary is, indeed, sinless. she is give that grace by God himself. she is forever protected from the destroyer of souls. she is the Mother of the Nazarene.

imagine if you had the power to created your own mother. would you not pour out all the goodness that is your heart into her?
 
joseph_virgen said:
Mary is, indeed, sinless. she is give that grace by God himself. she is forever protected from the destroyer of souls. she is the Mother of the Nazarene.

imagine if you had the power to created your own mother. would you not pour out all the goodness that is your heart into her?
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Just imagine… Hey, I’m getting some “new light” here…maybe…Mary…was “transubstantiated”.

I mean… How do you know otherwise?..You don’t have the “Key” and you can’t even be sure if the word’s in God’s Bible are real, so why waste time discussing it.

It is so because I said so and my “analogy” makes sense to me.
 
Josh_Miller said:
If you take Scripture - even the abridged version of the Bible - you’re going to end up with a billion different theological principles, arguments, etc. Proof? Two new Protestant denominations open per week, all claiming to hold the keys to the Holy Bible.

Pax Vobiscum!
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Hi Josh

Would that also hold true for the different authorized versions/translations of the bible itself, that are used by various Catholic believers, within the Catholic church?

I ask that, as when in responding to a request from montanaman earlier for someone to find the “Hail” scripture in reference to Mary, I searched for authorized Catholic versions/translations and as you can see by my previous post, from only the 3 that I found…they all are a bit different (I didn’t post all of them).

I’ve found that in taking part in these forums, that there are different understandings on some of the interpretations of the bible as well as with some of the “traditions” and what they mean to individual Catholics - from either how they have been taught - or how they themselves “understand” them.
 
homer said:
I respect all your opinions and i do agree that Mary was indeed a unique person no doubt.

Apologia100, you gave the example of the jungle, where did you get that from?! Is there any proof in the Holy Bible that supports your idea and proofs it or it is just from the imagination of human beings?!

Vincent (God is so powerful as to preserve Mary from the stain of Original Sin): who told you that? Show me a proof from the Holy Bible. Because if it doesn’t show in the Holy Bible than it is man made …

Vincent ( From the Catholic perspective, Mary was “born from above” at the moment of her conception): again a proof. Where do you bring those ideas from? Who is the source of these ideas? Is it man by any chance?

Vincent (If Mary is unclean (as homer believes) then this argument backfires against him. It would mean that “Not one” – *not even God *-- can bring a clean thing (Jesus) out of an unclean (Mary). But this is absurd.): I did mention that only Jesus was born without a sin through the HOLY SPIRIT.

Vincent (Mary has more reason than anybody on this earth for calling God her savior. While others were saved after falling into sin, God saved her before falling into sin in the first place. That’s salvation par excellence!): there is absolutely nothing mentioned in the Bible about this! Please tell me what is or who is the source of these ideas?
Who needs a Savior? A sinner! It’s so simple. There no mention in the Holy Bible about the fact that Mary was saved before falling into sin.

Brendan: Same story. How can you support this? Did God say anything about it? If he did, please do show me where it appears in the Holy Bible.

As a conclusion: everything i mentioned in the previous post has as a source the Holy Bible the word of God. I cannot accept the examples of the jungle … because they do not have as a reference the Holy Bible and they were invented by human beings.
Please do understand that i beleive that Mary was a great person but why this stuggle to make her sinless while this contradicts the word of God.
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Homer, I mean this for your benefit so that you can appear more credible in your writing:

STOP using lower-case “i” for the personal pronoun in mid-sentence! That is a very bad habit, and reduces the impact of your writing.

Thanks for being here, and contributing to the grist of our conversations. Best to you.
 
SIA said:
Only a sinner needs a Savior and Mary must have been a sinner. -St. Thomas Aquinas**
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:tsktsk: :tsktsk: :tsktsk:

Aquinas questioned the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, but added he would give his sacred assent to this teaching once it would become dogma. Still he believed and taught that Mary was sinless throughout her life, and that her sinlessness began at the moment of her birth instead of at the precise time she was conceived.

“Since Mary would not have been a worthy mother of God if she had ever sinned, we assert without qualification that Mary never committed a sinful act, fatal or non-fatal : You are wholly beautiful, my love, and without blemish .Christ is the source of grace, author of it as God and instrument of it as man, and, since Mary was closest to Christ in giving him his human nature, she rightly received from him fullness of grace: grace in such abundance as to bring her closest in grace to its author, receiving into herself the one who was full of grace [for others], and, by giving birth to him, bringing grace to all.”
Summa Theologica llla: 27. 4-5

According to Church dogma, Mary was implicated in the sin of Adam, so God intervened and redeemed her at the instant her ‘soul’ was fashioned when she was conceived in her mother’s womb by not being denied sanctifying grace, whose absence is a mark of original sin. This single privilege was granted Mary by Almighty God in virtue of her Divine maternity. And this truth is implicitly revealed to us in the Magnificat of the Gospel of Luke:

“My ‘soul’ proclaims the greatness of the Lord,
and my ‘spirit’ rejoices in God my saviour.
For he has looked upon his lowly handmaid.
Behold, from now all generations ‘shall’ call me blessed.
For the Almighty has done great things for me
and holy is his name.”

PAX :tiphat:
 
homer said:
We are all sinners and Mary is also a sinner. The only human being that is not a sinner is Jesus Christ for he is the Son of God.

Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one. (Job 14:4)
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Actually this verse is cited by Catholics to support belief in the sinlessness of Mary and the typology between her and the pure and undefiled ark of the Old Covenant. How could the holy child be born of a sinful woman? How could someone pure and holy be contained in the womb of an impure and blemished woman? 🤷 God fashioned Mary to be pure and spotless in virtue of her Divine maternity.

PAX 😉
 
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