Sinless Mary

[justasking4]

PerryJ;4183239]
Originally Posted by justasking4
If you want to say this then you are going to have show that He did do it for Mary.

Where do the Scriptures say Mary was “proactively saved” from original sin?

How would you define worship? What are elements of worship?

I don’t know how you can say this? Here is the evidence that she was a sinner like all of us:

1. born of human parents who were sinners and inherits their nature
2. Luke 1:47-- acknowledges God as her Savior. She recognizes herself as a sinner and need of a Savior.
3. Romans 3:23, 5:12-- all have sinned
4. Romans 6:23-- wages of sin is death and Mary died

PerryJ
The first three have already been refuted. Restating them as if they haven’t won’t work.

Its not even close to being refuted. To show that Mary was some kind of exception you would need to show from Scripture the following:

1. She was “saved” from sinning.
2. She did not inherit Adam’s sin through her human parents
3. That she did not die
4. Anyone in Scripture claiming that she was indeed sinless.

Show me proof that Mary died. Since you believe in SS do it via the Bible.

It doesn’t say. Keep in mind that it does not record the death of many either. Should we assume they to never died and went directly to heaven?

Here is what Catholic scholars say about her death:

The Roman Catholic writer Eamon Duffy concedes that, ‘there is, clearly, no historical evidence whatever for it …’ (Eamon Duffy, What Catholics Believe About Mary (London: Catholic Truth Society, 1989), p. 17). For centuries in the early Church there is complete silence regarding Mary’s end. The first mention of it is by Epiphanius in 377 A.D. and he specifically states that no one knows what actually happened to Mary. He lived near Palestine and if there were, in fact, a tradition in the Church generally believed and taught he would have affirmed it. But he clearly states that ‘her end no one knows.’
These are his words:
But if some think us mistaken, let them search the Scriptures. They will not find Mary’s death; they will not find whether she died or did not die; they will not find whether she was buried or was not buried … Scripture is absolutely silent [on the end of Mary] … For my own part, I do not dare to speak, but I keep my own thoughts and I practice silence … The fact is, Scripture has outstripped the human mind and left [this matter] uncertain … Did she die, we do not know … Either the holy Virgin died and was buried … Or she was killed … Or she remained alive, since nothing is impossible with God and He can do whatever He desires; for her end no-one knows.’ (Epiphanius, Panarion, Haer. 78.10-11, 23. Cited by juniper Carol, O.F.M. ed., Mariology, Vol. II (Milwaukee: Bruce, 1957), pp. 139-40).

 

[JoeyWarren]

MATTHEW 19:17

I realize that there are several translations of this verse, but they all suggest that there is only one who is good, and that is God.

Doesn’t that suggest that all except Christ are sinners, including Mary?

**No not at all. If anything it proves too much since Jesus is the speaker and he does not exclude himself nor the Holy Spirit. **

 

[PerryJ]

Its not even close to being refuted. To show that Mary was some kind of exception you would need to show from Scripture the following:

1. She was “saved” from sinning.
2. She did not inherit Adam’s sin through her human parents
3. That she did not die
4. Anyone in Scripture claiming that she was indeed sinless.

It doesn’t say. Keep in mind that it does not record the death of many either. Should we assume they to never died and went directly to heaven?

Here is what Catholic scholars say about her death:

The Roman Catholic writer Eamon Duffy concedes that, ‘there is, clearly, no historical evidence whatever for it …’ (Eamon Duffy, What Catholics Believe About Mary (London: Catholic Truth Society, 1989), p. 17). For centuries in the early Church there is complete silence regarding Mary’s end. The first mention of it is by Epiphanius in 377 A.D. and he specifically states that no one knows what actually happened to Mary. He lived near Palestine and if there were, in fact, a tradition in the Church generally believed and taught he would have affirmed it. But he clearly states that ‘her end no one knows.’
These are his words:
But if some think us mistaken, let them search the Scriptures. They will not find Mary’s death; they will not find whether she died or did not die; they will not find whether she was buried or was not buried … Scripture is absolutely silent [on the end of Mary] … For my own part, I do not dare to speak, but I keep my own thoughts and I practice silence … The fact is, Scripture has outstripped the human mind and left [this matter] uncertain … Did she die, we do not know … Either the holy Virgin died and was buried … Or she was killed … Or she remained alive, since nothing is impossible with God and He can do whatever He desires; for her end no-one knows.’ (Epiphanius, Panarion, Haer. 78.10-11, 23. Cited by juniper Carol, O.F.M. ed., Mariology, Vol. II (Milwaukee: Bruce, 1957), pp. 139-40).

My previous post showed all of this.

Others were assumed into heaven. How much more is Mary then these people?

You haven’t been able to show any of my post in error. We have been able to show each of your posts to contian error or are without merit.

 

[justasking4]

PerryJ;4183419]My previous post showed all of this.

Others were assumed into heaven. How much more is Mary then these people?

All you and others who claim that she was assumed into heaven is speculation.

You haven’t been able to show any of my post in error. We have been able to show each of your posts to contian error or are without merit.

If this were the case posters here would have refuted my arguments line by line and that has not happened.

 

[PerryJ]

All you and others who claim that she was assumed into heaven is speculation.

If this were the case posters here would have refuted my arguments line by line and that has not happened.

Just as you have to speculate about the Trinity.

Backwards, I have posted a proof. You have not been able to refute my proof. An item that Protestants continuously claim is unbiblical and a Catholic myth has been presented with a Biblical proof, which we do not need to do, and you can not refute via the Bible. If it is so unbiblical why can not you use the Bible to refute it?

 

[justasking4]

Just as you have to speculate about the Trinity.

Backwards, I have posted a proof. You have not been able to refute my proof. An item that Protestants continuously claim is unbiblical and a Catholic myth has been presented with a Biblical proof, which we do not need to do, and you can not refute via the Bible. If it is so unbiblical why can not you use the Bible to refute it?

It does tell us that all of mankind is fallen since Adam sinned. The only exception is the Lord Jesus because of His miraculous conception and Who He is. Everyone else though was and is a sinner. This would also include Mary.

 

[PerryJ]

It does tell us that all of mankind is fallen since Adam sinned. The only exception is the Lord Jesus because of His miraculous conception and Who He is. Everyone else though was and is a sinner. This would also include Mary.

Your verses from Romans and Matthew have been proven to be taken out of context. Do you have any other verses? In fact did Joey not shows that Matthew actually states that Jesus had sin if interpeted the way you wish to interpret it. How do you as a SS refute Matthew which would clearly states Jesus sinned. He was the speaker and did not exclude himself. How cna the Bible contradict your theology? Aren’t they supposed to be one and the same?

 

[JoeyWarren]

I don’t know how you can say this? Here is the evidence that she was a sinner like all of us:

1. born of human parents who were sinners and inherits their nature
2. Luke 1:47-- acknowledges God as her Savior. She recognizes herself as a sinner and need of a Savior.
3. Romans 3:23, 5:12-- all have sinned
4. Romans 6:23-- wages of sin is death and Mary died

1) Jesus was born of a human parent. Therefore inherits Mary’s nature by your own logic. This does present a quandary doesn’t it?

**2) Luke 1:47 - yes Mary acknowledges God as her Savior. The question is when? When did God save her? **

---

**Did God save her the moment she said it? **
Did God save her when Gabriel appeared to her?
**Did God save her when the Holy Spirit overshadowed her? Or Did God save her at some earlier point in time? **

**Explicitly the scriptures are silent. Implicitly the Scriptures are clear when one draws upon the parallels and the elements of foreshadowing in the OT. **

**Mary makes no explicit declaration that she is a sinner. IE: I AM A SINNER. She merely declares God as her Savior. Again it’s the question of when this SAVING occured. **

**Mary makes no explicit declaration that she is in need of Savior. ****IE: I NEED A SAVIOR. She merely declares God is her Savior. Again it’s the question of when the SAVING occured. **

3) Romans 3:23, 5:12-- all have sinned - this red herring has already been discussed in detail. The word for all is PAS not HAPAS. if Paul had used the word HAPAS here instead then you would be right and we would be wrong. PAS does not mean each and every single person without exception. Only HAPAS does so.

4) Romans 6:23-- wages of sin is death and Mary died - You have taken this verse out of context and have left out the other part of the verse as well: Here it is in it’s entirety:

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

**The DEATH mentioned here is SPIRITUAL DEATH which results in Eternal Damnation. **

Hope this helps:tiphat:

 

[justasking4]

JoeyWarren;4183561]**
justasking4
I don’t know how you can say this? Here is the evidence that she was a sinner like all of us:

1. born of human parents who were sinners and inherits their nature
2. Luke 1:47-- acknowledges God as her Savior. She recognizes herself as a sinner and need of a Savior.
3. Romans 3:23, 5:12-- all have sinned
4. Romans 6:23-- wages of sin is death and Mary died **

JoeyWarren

1. Jesus was born of a human parent. Therefore inherits Mary’s nature by your own logic. This does present a quandary doesn’t it?

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Not really. If we take a strict application of where sin came into the world and caused the fall it was through Adam. Jesus was also God.

**2) Luke 1:47 - yes Mary acknowledges God as her Savior. The question is when? When did God save her? Did God save her the moment she said it. Did God save her when Gabriel appeared to her. Or Did God save her at some earlier point in time? Explicitly the scriptures are silent. Implicitly the Scriptures are clear when one draws upon the parallels and the elements of foreshadowing in the OT. **

To save someone does not mean they never sinned. Throughout the NT for examples it is said belief in the gospel message saves a man but that does not mean she never sinned nor sins again.
Secondly, no writer of the NT ever comes close to saying she never sinned. Not one.

**Mary makes no explicit declaration that she is a sinner. IE: I AM A SINNER. She merely declares God as her Savior. Again it’s the question of when this SAVING occured. **

Lots of people in the NT never make such a declaration either. Should we assume they to were not sinners?

**Mary makes no explicit declaration that she is in need of Savior. ****IE: I NEED A SAVIOR. She merely declares God is her Savior. Again it’s the question of when the SAVING occured. **

---

This is an explicit statement that she did indeed need a Savior. Her acknowledgement of declaring God as her Savior is proof of it.

3) Romans 3:23, 5:12-- all have sinned - this red herring has already been discussed in detail. The word for all is PAS not HAPAS. if Paul had used the word HAPAS here instead then you would be right and we would be wrong. PAS does not mean each and every single person without exception. Only HAPAS does so.

Who else besides Jesus and Mary did not inherit Adams sin?

4) Romans 6:23-- wages of sin is death and Mary died - You have taken this verse out of context and have left out the other part of the verse as well: Here it is in it’s entirety:

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

**The DEATH mentioned here is SPIRITUAL DEATH which results in Eternal Damnation. **

We also know that all men die physically unless there is some other indication that they did not. There are only 2 in the OT that i’m aware of.

Hope this helps:tiphat:

 

[JoeyWarren]

JA4 Not really. If we take a strict application of where sin came into the world and caused the fall it was through Adam. Jesus was also God.

**Counter point. If we did take the ultimate strict application of where sin came into the world and caused the fall, the answer is found in Genesis where EVE was the one to sin first and then Adam. **

---

**Take note as when the Bible was penned. It was penned of an area absent of Modern Medical Understanding. So there are parts of the Bible that were once a Scientific and Absolute in truth are no longer a Scientific truth and no longer an Absolute Truth. **

---

**We know now that the Sperm povides only 2 things. It provides DNA and it provides fertilization. It is the Ovary that provides life. **

---

**Is Original Sin transmuted thru the DNA of the Sperm or thru the DNA of the Ovary or the Life givning force of the Mother? **

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**Who knows for sure? **

---

**Jesus being God is irrelevant if Original Sin flows First from he Woman as Genesis indicates. **

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**We could discuss this all year to no avail. **

---

---

 

[JoeyWarren]

To save someone does not mean they never sinned.

Of course it can. Otherwise all things are not possible with God as scripture explicitly states. Your own statement belittles God. You are saying that once a person is saved THEY WILL SIN and THERE IS NOTHING GOD CAN DO ABOUT IT.

---

Throughout the NT for examples it is said belief in the gospel message saves a man but that does not mean she never sinned nor sins again.

**This is true. This is also true: It does not mean that she will sin. Again you are selling God short. All things are possible with God. **

Secondly, no writer of the NT ever comes close to saying she never sinned. Not one.

**This is true. This is also true. Secondly, no writer of the NT ever comes close to saying she ever sinned at all. Not one. **

---

**Only your poor exegisis of “All Have Sinned” shows you otherwise. **

 

[JoeyWarren]

This is an explicit statement that she did indeed need a Savior. Her acknowledgement of declaring God as her Savior is proof of it.

Wrong again. Declaring God as ones Savior is not an explicit declaration of NEEDING a savior.
Implicitly it would be a stretch. She is only explicitly declaring That she has been saved. Again it’s the question of when she got saved.

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Pick an answer:

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1. At the moment she declared who her Savior was.

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2. At the Overshadowing of the Holy Spirit.

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3. At the Annunciation by Gabriel.

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4. At some point before the Annunciation and after her birth.

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5. During Anne’s pregnancy of Mary.

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**6. At Mary’s conception. **

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Pick one.

 

[justasking4]

**Counter point. If we did take the ultimate strict application of where sin came into the world and caused the fall, the answer is found in Genesis where EVE was the one to sin first and then Adam. **

---

**Take note as when the Bible was penned. It was penned of an area absent of Modern Medical Understanding. So there are parts of the Bible that were once a Scientific and Absolute in truth are no longer a Scientific truth and no longer an Absolute Truth. **

---

**We know now that the Sperm povides only 2 things. It provides DNA and it provides fertilization. It is the Ovary that provides life. **

---

**Is Original Sin transmuted thru the DNA of the Sperm or thru the DNA of the Ovary or the Life givning force of the Mother? **

---

**Who knows for sure? **

---

**Jesus being God is irrelevant if Original Sin flows First from he Woman as Genesis indicates. **

---

**We could discuss this all year to no avail. **

---

---

Even though Eve sinned first it was Adam’s sin that caused the fall. We see this in a number of places in Scripture most clearly in Romans 5:12 where it says --Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—

 

[justasking4]

JoeyWarren;4183758]**
This is an explicit statement that she did indeed need a Savior. Her acknowledgement of declaring God as her Savior is proof of it.

JoeyWarren
Wrong again. Declaring God as ones Savior is not an explicit declaration of NEEDING a savior.**
Implicitly it would be a stretch. She is only explicitly declaring That she has been saved. Again it’s the question of when she got saved.

---

Pick an answer:

---

1. At the moment she declared who her Savior was.

---

2. At the Overshadowing of the Holy Spirit.

---

3. At the Annunciation by Gabriel.

---

4. At some point before the Annunciation and after her birth.

---

5. During Anne’s pregnancy of Mary.

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**6. At Mary’s conception. **

---

Pick one.]
Scripture does not say nor should we. Scripture does not even record her birth. We do know that she does acknowledge God as her Savior. To pick any is to speculate without any facts to back it up. I could easily do this for anyone else.

Can you think of one passage in the OT where it speaks of anyone being “saved”?

Thirdly, it does not follow that even if a person is saved as all Christians are it never means they never sinned nor sinned after being saved.

Is there any verse in the NT that leads you to think Mary herself thought of herself as being sinless?

 

[Roy5]

MARY, ANNE AND PAUL

 I'm one of those Christians who doesn't feel that I need to know all the details. We are called upon to live by faith and not by knowledge. I guess I would have to say that in some arenas I maintain a certain skepticism because I don't believe it makes any difference in our commitment to Christ whether we believe A or B. Our duty is to love Christ and serve him and our neighbors in every way that we can - a Christ clearly stated.

 A couple quick examples.

 In the tradition of my genealogical family (French Canadian) St. Anne plays a key role. She is said to have been the mother of Mary. But there is nothing in the Bible about the mother of Mary. The only Anne (Anna) mentioned by that name was in the temple when Jesus was dedicated (Luke 2:27) and recognized Jesus was the messiah (Luke 2:37-38). I'm inclined to think that the rest is legend, possibly true in part, but we don't know. And that's okay with me.

 Now, if Mary is supposed to be so elevated within Christian theology and worship, why is it that in all the many letters St. Paul sent to the early Christians not once is her name so much as mentioned? Paul certainly focused on the essentials of Christian belief. Why not a single reference to Mary?

  It is enough to honor Mary as the mother of Jesus, which all Christians do. But it does puzzle me that among some Catholics she appears to get as much adoration as Jesus - or even more. Consider the Rosary, for example, and compare the number of Hail Marys to the Our Fathers etc.

 

[JoeyWarren]

We also know that all men die physically unless there is some other indication that they did not. There are only 2 in the OT that i’m aware of.

This nothing but a diversion away from the issue that you took Romans 6:23 out to total context. So let us keep to the meat of the post. We can discuss your issue in another thread.

 

[justasking4]

This nothing but a diversion away from the issue that you took Romans 6:23 out to total context. So let us keep to the meat of the post. We can discuss your issue in another thread.

I did not take it out of context but have used it to show that all who sin die. Unless you have some proof that Mary did not die then that would help your case for Mary not being a sinner. If you can’t then it stands to reason by the Scriptures that Mary to was under the curse of sin and died because of it.

 

[JoeyWarren]

Even though Eve sinned first it was Adam’s sin that caused the fall. We see this in a number of places in Scripture most clearly in Romans 5:12 where it says --Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—

**One has to took at the cultural influence of why Paul wrote certain things. It was not permissible to give any woman too much credit for anything. There are a lot of things Paul wrote concerning women that we now know does not apply anymore. Certain scriptures only apply to an era in time. No need to go into specifics. Anyone can browse thru the Scriptures and point out issues that no longer concern us because the Culture has changed. **

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As for “One Man” lets translate using other defininitions of the Greek Words that are used for One and Man

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One is derived by the Greek Word HEIS which in other places in scripture is rendered A, Only, Another, Other

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The word that is rendered Man in this verse is Anthropos which really means Manfaced or Mankind whereas the word ANER which has the actual definition of MAN is not used here.

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So a better translation would be this

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Wherefore, as by A Manfaced sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all Manfaced, for that all have sinned:

But our knowledge of things, I think this would be more appropiate translation based on what is actually trying to be said:

Where as by ONLY MANKIND sin entered into the word, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all **Mankind, **for that all have sinned:

**So you have another quandary here. Since Anthropos is used in both instances of the word man(men) then to say that One Man means only Adam then you will have to also say that Death is only passed on to Men and not Women. **

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Which one will it be?

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[JoeyWarren]

I did not take it out of context but have used it to show that all who sin die. Unless you have some proof that Mary did not die then that would help your case for Mary not being a sinner. If you can’t then it stands to reason by the Scriptures that Mary to was under the curse of sin and died because of it.

**It does not show that Mary died, because the Context is an Spiritual Death not a Physical Death. There is no other context to that verse. A Spiritual Death is a total separation from God resulting in one being cast in to the fires of hell if they are in that same state of Spiritual Death at their actuall Physical Death. **

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**That verse has never meant a Physical Death as you claim. **

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**You can’t take a verse out of context to prove a point. **

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And if you could, it proves too much as shown below.

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**It proves that Jesus did sin, beause he died. **

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It proves that Enoch and Elijah never sinned at all because they did not die.

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Care to wiggle your way out of that one?

 

[justasking4]

**One has to took at the cultural influence of why Paul wrote certain things. It was not permissible to give any woman too much credit for anything. There are a lot of things Paul wrote concerning women that we now know does not apply anymore. Certain scriptures only apply to an era in time. No need to go into specifics. Anyone can browse thru the Scriptures and point out issues that no longer concern us because the Culture has changed. **

---

As for “One Man” lets translate using other defininitions of the Greek Words that are used for One and Man

---

One is derived by the Greek Word HEIS which in other places in scripture is rendered A, Only, Another, Other

---

The word that is rendered Man in this verse is Anthropos which really means Manfaced or Mankind whereas the word ANER which has the actual definition of MAN is not used here.

---

So a better translation would be this

---

Wherefore, as by A Manfaced sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all Manfaced, for that all have sinned:

But our knowledge of things, I think this would be more appropiate translation based on what is actually trying to be said:

Where as by ONLY MANKIND sin entered into the word, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all **Mankind, **for that all have sinned:

**So you have another quandary here. Since Anthropos is used in both instances of the word man(men) then to say that One Man means only Adam then you will have to also say that Death is only passed on to Men and not Women. **

---

Which one will it be?

---

The problem is that the Scriptures also attribute the fall of man to Adam and not Eve. This is why Jesus is always compared to Adam and not Eve.

Since Eve also ate she sinned and when they both started to have children the fallness of Adam was passed onto all men and women.