Skeptic Michael Shermer: Skepticism shaken to its core

[Pallas_Athene]

What is interesting is the story you posted. Thanks for sharing it with us. The story rings true because if it had been a matter of managing with the issue in accordance with normal procedures, they would not have conjured up such a story. There would be no need to make it up, especially given that they, as most people would know it would not be believed. I think many such stories are never told.

Many people believe what is printed in the National Enquirer. There is a market for such stories. Observe, how many people believe that wrestling is “for real”. And that there are alien abductions. And that the Moon landing was just a fabrication of the media. Einstein said: “There are two things which are infinite… the universe and human stupidity… and I am not sure about the universe”.

 

[Aloysium]

Have we not been waiting for over two thousand years for the return of Christ? Did not Paul infer that it would occur in one generation?These are major issues that must be answered.

John

Matthew 24:36 "But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

Mark 13:32 "But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

Act 1:7 He said to them: "It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority.

1 Thessalonians 5:1 Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you,

Deuteronomy 29:29 The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may follow all the words of this law.

Job 24:1 "Why does the Almighty not set times for judgment? Why must those who know him look in vain for such days?

Hoping you find the answer.

 

[PRmerger]

Certainly.

But a scientist ought never be satisfied with that.

We acknowledge our ignorance, and then spend the rest of the day looking for the answer to fill the void of that ignorance.

God of the Gaps, exactly my point. You always have all the answers.

Ummm….what?

You are opposed to acknowledging our ignorance and then spending the rest of the day looking for the answer to fill that void of ignorance?

 

[PRmerger]

Well, the RCC speaks with authority, they dont speak from a neutral point. When asked about the specifics, it basically amounts to “We dont know, but, we know we’re right.” So they cant tell you how they got there, but they can certainly tell you they are right and you are wrong. That isnt the same as admitting we dont have the answers today, but we may one day have the answers.

You are so misinformed here, Son, that I can’t even continue this tributary.

Suffice it to say, Lurkers, that SonofMan has not articulated anything even remotely close to the Catholic position.

 

[PRmerger]

It is a hearsay story, nothing to investigate.

Wow. Again, something so unscientific coming from the mouth of a science advocate.

I really don’t understand this double standrd.

 

[Major_Tom]

Hoping you find the answer.

Would appreciate your thoughts on how these metaphoric quotes reconcile with the words of Jesus: “I say unto you, this generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled”.

 

[edwest2]

What is interesting is the story you posted. Thanks for sharing it with us. The story rings true because if it had been a matter of managing with the issue in accordance with normal procedures, they would not have conjured up such a story. There would be no need to make it up, especially given that they, as most people would know it would not be believed. I think many such stories are never told.

You’re welcome. There are other such events that either do not get told or do not lead to further investigation.

Ed

 

[Aloysium]

Would appreciate your thoughts on how these metaphoric quotes reconcile with the words of Jesus: “I say unto you, this generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled”.

I am not sure why you refer to the quotes as metaphoric. They seem clear to me.
Jesus is saying that it is our Creator who decides when the end of time will be.
God being one, knows all in eternity.
Jesus as the Word incarnate, speaking at a particular time and place, is saying that He does not know.
I take this to mean that He cannot say when it will be, in obedience to the Father.
That is how I reconcile that part.

The question as to the meaning of the quote above, has been and will continue to be discussed and argued among theologians.
Not being one myself nor a protestant, believing in sola scriptura; it remains one of the more than ten billion things that sit on my mental back burner.
Maybe He was talking about the destruction of the Temple. I personally don’t think so.
I also don’t think that he meant that the end was going to happen while His contemporaneous peer group had not died off. There are too many things that are described as having to happen before.
I really have no idea. I suppose it all boils down to what is meant by “generation” and by “fulfilled”.

There will be an end to the world.
Before that there will be an end to me.
It doesn’t really matter when that is.
What is important is what I do now.
All will be known.

These are my thoughts on the matter.
There are a lot more interesting and far more immediate things to contemplate, but it does seem a worthy question. Thx for asking.

 

[Major_Tom]

I am not sure why you refer to the quotes as metaphoric. They seem clear to me.
Jesus is saying that it is our Creator who decides when the end of time will be.
God being one, knows all in eternity.
Jesus as the Word incarnate, speaking at a particular time and place, is saying that He does not know.

I also don’t think that he meant that the end was going to happen while His contemporaneous peer group had not died off. There are too many things that are described as having to happen before.
I really have no idea. I suppose it all boils down to what is meant by “generation” and by “fulfilled”.
.

Respectfully, Jesus is not saying that he does not know when these calamitous end-times will occur. He explicitly says that he does know - it will be before this generation passes. I appreciate that some quotes are considered symbolic, but do not know how ‘generation’ could be interpreted to mean anything other than ‘generation’.

 

[Aloysium]

Respectfully, Jesus is not saying that he does not know when these calamitous end-times will occur. He explicitly says that he does know - it will be before this generation passes. I appreciate that some quotes are considered symbolic, but do not know how ‘generation’ could be interpreted to mean anything other than ‘generation’.

I apologize for my rudeness. But, please read post 82, reread my last post and get back to me if you really want to engage in a reasonable discussion. If you want to know more than what some random Catholic on the Internet thinks, there’s a lot if learned stuff out there. If you are just here to voice your opinion, don’t quote me. Thx

 

[Major_Tom]

I apologize for my rudeness. But, please read post 82, reread my last post and get back to me if you really want to engage in a reasonable discussion. If you want to know more than what some random Catholic on the Internet thinks, there’s a lot if learned stuff out there. If you are just here to voice your opinion, don’t quote me. Thx

I am not interested in trolling, and made sure to begin my previous response with ‘Respectfully’. It’s sincere.

I think it was OldCelt who asked the question about reconciling waiting for Jesus’ return, and contrasted it with the New Testament suggestion that it was imminent (that is, imminent in the immediate time after Jesus). I’ve pondered the same question myself… I read your answer as suggesting that we don’t know when that will be… fine. Not trying to belabor the part, just making a follow-up comment. My use of the word ‘metaphor’ was incorrect. I’ll amend it; the citations you quoted suggest an open-ended timeframe.

However, there is a still a contradiction with that answer when Jesus himself said that calamitous goings-on would occur “before this generation passed” (now, long since passed by a thousand years).

 

[Mike_from_NJ]

However, there is a still a contradiction with that answer when Jesus himself said that calamitous goings-on would occur “before this generation passed” (now, long since passed by a thousand years).

Not only that, he also told his followers that some of them would not taste death till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. He told the high priest Caiphas that he (Caiphas) would see him (Jesus) returning in the clouds.

 

[Pallas_Athene]

Wow. Again, something so unscientific coming from the mouth of a science advocate.

Yes, I advocate science… which should not be confused with pseudo-science.

I really don’t understand this double standrd.

There is no double standard as I explained in post #76 (forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=13160009&postcount=76). Please help yourself and read it. In the meantime I will take the liberty and assume that you happen to be the person who is responsible for allocating the resources for your household. If so, then I hope that you prioritize and spend the limited resources on the things which promise to give the best possible returns, and do not waste them on nonsensical endeavors. But, then again, maybe your mileage varies from mine.

Now, I actually gave you the proper method to perform the experiments which would make the world sit up and take notice of your miracles. Just send the amputees to Lourdes and other holy places, gather all your fellow-believers and start praying for those people to have their severed limbs regrow. Don’t forget to make a public announcement and list the names (and other relevant data) of the soon-to-be-healed amputees.

You said that you have an open mind, and willing to follow the results, no matter where the chips may fall. Here is the opportunity to put your money where your mouth is. If there are no limbs regrown in a week (for example) you can conclude that the miracles at Lourdes simply do not happen, and the prayers were in vain. If you are intellectually honest, and follow what you said, you will act according to the "NON-RESULT. Are you ready?

 

[Aloysium]

. . . I think it was OldCelt who asked the question about reconciling waiting for Jesus’ return, and contrasted it with the New Testament suggestion that it was imminent (that is, imminent in the immediate time after Jesus). . . . there is a still a contradiction with that answer when Jesus himself said that calamitous goings-on would occur “before this generation passed” (now, long since passed by a thousand years).

It is not an issue for me. Jesus said He did not know, and I explained how I understand that. I have no idea what Jesus meant because I do not know what is meant by “generation” or by “fullfillment”. It could be that the fulfillment was His death and resurrection, the effect of which was felt on all time, coming from and having been set at the foundation of the world. I don’t think I can be clearer as to how I think than I was in the posts above. BTW - I find that literalists miss a lot of the truth contained in sacred writings. It is important to pray for discernment.

Not only that, he also told his followers that some of them would not taste death till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. He told the high priest Caiphas that he (Caiphas) would see him (Jesus) returning in the clouds.

And, you know what He meant as well as knowing this did not happen in spite of not even believing that He was the Son of God. Obviously, it is because you do not believe He is the Son of God.

Matthew 13:18-23: “Hear then the parable of the sower: When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is what was sown along the path. As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is the one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy, yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away. As for what was sown among thorns, this is the one who hears the word, but the cares of the world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and it proves unfruitful. As for what was sown on good soil, this is the one who hears the word and understands it. He indeed bears fruit and yields, in one case a hundredfold, in another sixty, and in another thirty.”

 

[Mike_from_NJ]

It is not an issue for me. Jesus said He did not know, and I explained how I understand that. I have no idea what Jesus meant because I do not know what is meant by “generation” or by “fullfillment”. It could be that the fulfillment was His death and resurrection, the effect of which was felt on all time, coming from and having been set at the foundation of the world. I don’t think I can be clearer as to how I think than I was in the posts above. BTW - I find that literalists miss a lot of the truth contained in sacred writings. It is important to pray for discernment.

And, you know what He meant as well as knowing this did not happen in spite of not even believing that He was the Son of God. Obviously, it is because you do not believe He is the Son of God.

So you don’t know what the words may mean, but you’re sure they are true. What’s the point of prophecy if it has absolutely no set meaning prior to its (alleged) completion? The term “generation” is applied in a specific way throughout the Bible, except when it comes to these specific passages. Why? Because if it was interpreted in the way it is in the rest of the Bible those passages would be shown to be false.

“Some of you standing here shall not taste death” has a very specific meaning (i.e. The events will happen before everyone who he is speaking to has died). What good are words when their meanings can be adjusted at the whim of the reader?

Deuteronomy 18:22
Thou shalt have this sign: Whatsoever that same prophet foretelleth in the name of the Lord, and it cometh not to pass: that thing the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath forged it by the pride of his mind: and therefore thou shalt not fear him.

 

[Aloysium]

So you don’t know what the words may mean, but you’re sure they are true. What’s the point of prophecy if it has absolutely no set meaning prior to its (alleged) completion? The term “generation” is applied in a specific way throughout the Bible, except when it comes to these specific passages. Why? Because if it was interpreted in the way it is in the rest of the Bible those passages would be shown to be false.

“Some of you standing here shall not taste death” has a very specific meaning (i.e. The events will happen before everyone who he is speaking to has died). What good are words when their meanings can be adjusted at the whim of the reader?

If you understood the Bible, you would not be an atheist.
It is by the grace of the Holy Spirit that we are able to grasp its meaning.
Some things are not important to know from where we are in our Journey to God.
If the meaning comes to me, and it could be that sola scriptura is heresy (I don’t know), I will get back to you.

 

[SonOfMan]

Ummm….what?

You are opposed to acknowledging our ignorance and then spending the rest of the day looking for the answer to fill that void of ignorance?

But believers dont acknowledge their ignorance truly. They know they’re right, they just pull out the “ignorance” card when it comes time to explain the specifics. That comes off as evasive and kind of convenient, not having to explain why youre (allegedly) right. As far as “looking for answers” goes for the believer, they have no such liberty. All the answers have been given thousands of years ago and public revelation has ceased. That is much different than a scientist honestly saying “I dont know” at the moment and working toward finding the answers, when the technology and capability allows for it.

 

[tonyrey]

Taking a page out of Peter’s play book. Misrepresenting what I say to deflect from what you have said (so I’ve cancelled the cheque as punishment). I have never said that miracles never occur. I have said that no evidence has been presented to me in regard to any miracle which I find personally credible. There have been very many. Consequently my position is that I don’t believe they occur. I’m sure you appreciate the difference.

You are deviating from your argument. You have failed to distinguish miracles which are coercive and those which are not.

And to add (to keep PR happy), I would be more than willing to change my mind if credible evidence is supplied. In fact, I would have no choice but to change my mind. But then, as you said in your earlier post, if a miracle was to be proved beyond any doubt whatsoever, it would…

Your criterion of credibility is a miracle which is coercive - like a permanent message in the sky.

Why then would you make any argument in favour of any given miracle being true?

Because they are scientifically inexplicable **and **motivated by compassion, not gratuitous demonstrations of power.

 

[tonyrey]

But believers dont acknowledge their ignorance truly. They know they’re right, they just pull out the “ignorance” card when it comes time to explain the specifics. That comes off as evasive and kind of convenient, not having to explain why youre (allegedly) right. As far as “looking for answers” goes for the believer, they have no such liberty. All the answers have been given thousands of years ago and public revelation has ceased. That is much different than a scientist honestly saying “I dont know” at the moment and working toward finding the answers, when the technology and capability allows for it.

That amounts to an act of faith that scientists will eventually explain everything…

 

[tonyrey]

I don’t see why Tony is not arguing against the veracity of miracles. He has two options as I see it:

Miracles do not occur: The Church is wrong.
Miracles do occur: There is no free will choice to believe.

Maybe there is a third. There is no proof either way that miracles occur or not so everyone is free to (wait for it) make up their own mind about them. So Pick A Box, Tony. First, second or third choice?

And let me know when you have some piccies of that miracle I mentioned earlier.

1. Miracles occur.
2. Miracles are not coercive. Everybody would accept them if they were.
3. Throughout history and throughout the world there have been countless cases of scientifically inexplicable recoveries from incurable disease in answer to prayer.