Slain in the spirit

[Mysty101]

Everybody’s experiences are different. You are not “bursting my bubble” I know there are abuses in CCR as well as any other aspect of the Church–(look at what happened in the priesthood) And to use that horrible example how many times did you hear about an abusive priest who everyone thought was a wonderful priest. The bad will not negate the good he did.

So with some Charismatics. They are human They have faults, but this does not make the movement bad any more than abusive priests make the priesthood bad.

 

[Intercessor]

My opinion: psychological mass hysteria.

You don’t have to believe it if you do not want to. I guess we’ll all know in the end, won’t we?

 

[johnq]

John 18:

4] Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him, went forth, and said to them: Whom seek ye?
5] They answered him: Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith to them: I am he. And Judas also, who betrayed him, stood with them.
6] As soon therefore as he had said to them: I am he; they went backward, and fell to the ground.

**The New Testament (Rheims 1582) **

Sounds like Christ gave us the first example.

What do you think? :yup: or :nope:

 

[Mysty101]

Very thought provoking…

Here’s the commentary on that passage

They say they are looking for Jesus of Nazareth, and Jesus responds, I am he (v. 5, ego eimi). Here the most humble and human of Jesus’ names is juxtaposed with the most exalted and divine. The two together are the cross hairs that target Jesus’ identity: he is the human being from an insignificant, small town in Galilee who is also God. Jesus’ self-identification has been at the heart of this Gospel, and this public act of identification produces dramatic effects. When he uses the divine I AM they drew back and fell to the ground (v. 6). People falling to the ground in the presence of God are mentioned elsewhere (for example, Ezek 1:28; Dan 10:9; Rev 1:17), but here the ones falling are his enemies rather than his worshipers. This reaction is closer to that of Pharaoh, who fell down as though dead when Moses said the name of God, as told by Artapanus, a pre-Christian Jewish apologist (Eusebius Preparation for the Gospel 9.27; Talbert 1992:233). This reaction is a reflection not of their hearts, but of Jesus’ majesty

.

So yes, that does fit—People may fall in the presence of the Spirit. It will not be of there will or of those who pray, it will be as He chooses to work in whomever He chooses. We will never know why anyone falls or if it is a reason other than the Holy Spirit. As with some healings—Would they have happened without the prayer? We will never know on this earth.

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

John of Woking:

Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut. On a more comic level someone I know claims they were pushed

I was once watching a televangelist and he was calling people up who would fall over when he touched them. A young couple came up and the guy looked really, really uncomfortable. When the pastor laid hands on him he didn’t do anything so the catcher man behind him pulled him over backward. He never went all the way down, but laid there lifting his head and sometimes his shoulders like he wanted to get up but the catcher man had his hand on him.

Just made me roll my eyes.

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[Madaglan]

Originally Quoted by Mysty101:

Everybody’s experiences are different. You are not “bursting my bubble” I know there are abuses in CCR as well as any other aspect of the Church–(look at what happened in the priesthood) And to use that horrible example how many times did you hear about an abusive priest who everyone thought was a wonderful priest. The bad will not negate the good he did.

So with some Charismatics. They are human They have faults, but this does not make the movement bad any more than abusive priests make the priesthood bad.

Right. I’m not saying that the CCR is necessarily a complete hoax; what I was trying to say is that don’t too readily believe the authenticity of people falling down, supposedly slain in the Spirit. The CCR may be very well legitimate. I just think that it would be dangerous to place too much credence in everything that goes on in the Charismatic movement. The fact that the pope and the bishops have given a stamp of approval to the Charismatic movement does not imply that the movement is 100% legitimate. I just can’t help but think of the Montanists of the 2nd century and how Ireneaus and the bishop of Rome at first saw nothing wrong with the Montanists and so allowed them to continue.

There’s a good book out on the subject of Charismatic-like activities throughout the centuries. Here it is:

Christian Initiation and Baptism in the Holy Spirit: Evidence from the First Eight Centuries

Perhaps after reading this book I can better understand the CCR’s role in the Church.

John 18:

4] Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him, went forth, and said to them: Whom seek ye?
5] They answered him: Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith to them: I am he. And Judas also, who betrayed him, stood with them.
6] As soon therefore as he had said to them: I am he; they went backward, and fell to the ground.

Not to offend you, but I have looked up passages like these in the Bible. My findings: not once does the Bible mention people actually falling back into a kind of unconciousness as we see today with being slain in the Spirit.

This passage is little different. When Jesus says, “I am he,” the men fall backwards to the ground. However, they are not “slain” in the Spirit. Immediately after this, Jesus again asks them, “Whom do you seek?”

I would find it odd that the Jewish soldiers would be slain in the Spirit and then afterwards bind Jesus and haul him in.

 

[misericordie]

Catholic4aReasn:

I was once watching a televangelist and he was calling people up who would fall over when he touched them. A young couple came up and the guy looked really, really uncomfortable. When the pastor laid hands on him he didn’t do anything so the catcher man behind him pulled him over backward. He never went all the way down, but laid there lifting his head and sometimes his shoulders like he wanted to get up but the catcher man had his hand on him.

Just made me roll my eyes.

In Christ,
Nancy

LOL, sounds like some “catholic parishes” here in the Archdiocese of New York under its present leadership. I really wish we still had the great Cardinal John O’Connor. WE MISS HIM!!!:crying:

 

[johnq]

Revelation 1:

16] And he had in his right hand seven stars. And from his mouth came out a sharp two edged sword: and his face was as the sun shineth in his power.
17] And when I had seen him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying: Fear not. I am the First and the Last,
18] And alive, and was dead, and behold I am living for ever and ever, and have the keys of death and of hell.

No offense taken.

I concur that we must discern the spirits. Satan would be more than happy to imitate this action to distract us.

My experience has been very fruitful.

 

[Madaglan]

I have this bookmark thingy that has all kinds of verses on it in support of each kind of Charismatic thing. For “Being Slain in the Spirit” the following verses are listed:

II Chronicles 5.14
John 18.6
Revelation 1.17
Matthew 28.4
Acts 9.4
Acts 22.7

My RSV version of Rev. 1.17 reads slightly differently: “When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand upon me, saying, ‘Fear not, I am the first and the last’…”

I can understand how you might want to link this verse with the Charismatic “Being slain in the Spirit”; but I don’t see a solid connection. The way I interpret it is that John falls to the ground in fear of God (which is why God tells him not to fear after he falls), not because he’s being filled with the Holy Spirit. That’s just my interpretation though.

Hope that doesn’t offend you. I plan to continue attending the Charismatic prayer group at my church once I return from college. I am pretty sure that some elements of it are supernatural; but I’m still trying to discern the group to make sure that it is Catholic and that it is the Spirit instead of a spirit that is involved. :yup:

 

[Mysty101]

Catholic4aReasn:

I was once watching a televangelist and he was calling people up who would fall over when he touched them.

Again this is a non-Catholic situation.

 

[johnq]

[QUOTEI can understand how you might want to link this verse with the Charismatic “Being slain in the Spirit”; but I don’t see a solid connection. The way I interpret it is that John falls to the ground in fear of God (which is why God tells him not to fear after he falls), not because he’s being filled with the Holy Spirit. That’s just my interpretation though.

Hope that doesn’t offend you. I plan to continue attending the Charismatic prayer group at my church once I return from college. I am pretty sure that some elements of it are supernatural; but I’m still trying to discern the group to make sure that it is Catholic and that it is the Spirit instead of a spirit that is involved. :yup:
[/QUOTE]

“John falls to the ground in fear of God”

Just a note, fear of the Lord is one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

“I’m still trying to discern”
Never stop discerning if this is from God, it is vital part of being in God’s will. :yup:

The first spirit I look for is obedience. No obedience = wrong spirit!

JMJ

 

[JamesD]

Background:
I no longer go to CCR (no particular reason). However, I did a couple decades ago. The fruits of the experence have been wonderfull.
I have never been slain in the spirit. At the time I was a person who always had to be in control.
My Experience:
I had never heard of CCR, or seen this kind of thing on TV. I had never heard of nore seen “Slain in the spirit”.
I had talked a few times with an old friend about his unusual conversion from CINO to being on fire. During one conversiation he asked if I would like him to pray over me and I said “OK”. So he does and I have to keep stopping him because I keep almost falling over. He keeps telling me that this is normal! Finaly he sugests I get on my knees to finish. I was really blown away when he took me to my first CCR service and saw all these people falling over!
That is why I personally believe it’s something real.

 

[Mysty101]

JamesD:

That is why I personally believe it’s something real.

James,
Yes, it is something real.Would all these detractors have accepted Jesus, if they were good Jews from His time on earth?

 

[Les_Richardson]

Mysty101:

James,
Yes, it is something real.Would all these detractors have accepted Jesus, if they were good Jews from His time on earth?

It is something real. I guess the only debate is over what it is, don’t you think?

 

[Les_Richardson]

Madaglan:

Hope that doesn’t offend you. I plan to continue attending the Charismatic prayer group at my church once I return from college. I am pretty sure that some elements of it are supernatural; but I’m still trying to discern the group to make sure that it is Catholic and that it is the Spirit instead of a spirit that is involved. :yup:

Absolutely. That is a very good idea.

 

[Mysty101]

Les Richardson:

It is something real. I guess the only debate is over what it is, don’t you think?

I’m still going with
Is it authentic Catholic connected with a Parish or other legitimate Catholic organization?

Is the leadership a Priest or authentic Catholic?

If not, I wouldn’t worry about discerning—I just wouldn’t go.

 

[misericordie]

Mysty101:

James,
Yes, it is something real.Would all these detractors have accepted Jesus, if they were good Jews from His time on earth?

Let’s alway be very careful to DISERN THE SPIRITS TO SEE IF THEY ARE FROM GOD as Saint Paul warns, and SAINT Ignatius of Loyola. Let’s not forget the devil can do sign and wonders too, or even make people levitate too.:yup:

 

[gnome]

misericordie:

Let’s alway be very careful to DISERN THE SPIRITS TO SEE IF THEY ARE FROM GOD as Saint Paul warns, and SAINT Ignatius of Loyola. Let’s not forget the devil can do sign and wonders too, or even make people levitate too.:yup:

Yes we cannot ignore these warnings. I also agree w/ johnq about the quick discernment: disobedience = wrong spirit.
Therefore, it is NOT the Holy Spirit if any charismatic is aware of, but not follow the statement from Charismatic Renewal’s top leader Cardinal Suenens regarding this Falling Phenomenon:

• We would always discourage circumstances in which the phenomenon would occur.
• We would not invite ministers whose prayer or teaching is associated with this phenomenon.

The Cardinal also quotes the German theologian, Professor Heribert Muhlen, " In accordance with the principle of the discernment of spirits, I believe that the phenomenon per se is of a psychological and therapeutic nature, and is out of place in a religious service."

 

[1_Maria]

gnome:

Yes we cannot ignore these warnings. I also agree w/ johnq about the quick discernment: disobedience = wrong spirit.
Therefore, it is NOT the Holy Spirit if any charismatic is aware of, but not follow the statement from Charismatic Renewal’s top leader Cardinal Suenens regarding this Falling Phenomenon:

• We would always discourage circumstances in which the phenomenon would occur.
• We would not invite ministers whose prayer or teaching is associated with this phenomenon.

The Cardinal also quotes the German theologian, Professor Heribert Muhlen, " In accordance with the principle of the discernment of spirits, I believe that the phenomenon per se is of a psychological and therapeutic nature, and is out of place in a religious service."

Thanks, Gnome. This is so important.

Cardinal Suenens warnings should be taken quite seriously.

This is not anything that foolish pride should brush aside.

Maria

 

[Mysty101]

misericordie:

Let’s alway be very careful to DISERN THE SPIRITS TO SEE IF THEY ARE FROM GOD as Saint Paul warns, and SAINT Ignatius of Loyola. Let’s not forget the devil can do sign and wonders too, or even make people levitate too.:yup:

Yes, again this is why it is so important to have authentic Catholic leadership and be connected to a Catholic parish or other authentic organization.