Slain in the spirit

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gnome:
Cardinal Suenens said “resting in the Spirit” is a mistake in his
Malign Documents:
parishmissions.com/six.html

And Fr.Bain said the same, not just an opinion but based on his many years CCR experience:
parishmissions.com/resting.html

CCR would not exist if it wasn’t for the support of Cardinal Suenens who was considered CCR top leader. If his statement is known and ignored, then it’s the spirit of disobedience.
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In my oppinion wonderful job accomplished by satan himself in stifling the Spirit of God. Mission Accomplished!! :eek:
 
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Madaglan:
Just an additional note. I’ve been to three Charismatic healing masses already. At each one I went up for people to pray over me. In not one of them did I feel the presence of the Holy Spirit. In fact, in the last one, I was indeed pushed back. It wasn’t that I wasn’t open to being slain in the spirit, but they were already pushing me back even when the spirit wasn’t working in me yet. I kept on resisting, but eventually they pushed me to the ground, even though I didn’t want to go to the ground when I wasn’t really “slain in the Spirit.” Actually, the guy who was supposed to catch me sorta pulled me down to the ground. :mad:

I’m sorry to burst your bubble: but I can say from personal experience that in some cases people do get pushed to the ground even when they have not been slain in the Spirit.

Although I attend a Charismatic prayer group in my area, I have yet to receive any of the special gifts. I am very wary of being slain in the Spirit, for one because it is not Biblical–unlike some other aspects of the Charismatics.

In any case, I honestly don’t know what to make of the Charismatic group to which I go. They are very friendly, but oftentimes they seem more Protestantized than most Catholics. For example, they spoke highly of a priest who claimed to have a “born again” experience when he was given the baptism of the Spirit. I find this really odd because in most other ways they are highly devoted to the Catholic faith.
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That’s very interesting. The most dangerous thing is measuring your sanctity according to how many ‘gifts’ you receive. I.e. if you speak in tongues and prophesy than that somehow makes you holier than a non-charismatic.

There is surely some good in the charismatic movement but there is nothing less edifying than a proud charismatic leader :eek:
 
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Madaglan:
Just an additional note. I’ve been to three Charismatic healing masses already. At each one I went up for people to pray over me. In not one of them did I feel the presence of the Holy Spirit. In fact, in the last one, I was indeed pushed back. It wasn’t that I wasn’t open to being slain in the spirit, but they were already pushing me back even when the spirit wasn’t working in me yet. I kept on resisting, but eventually they pushed me to the ground, even though I didn’t want to go to the ground when I wasn’t really “slain in the Spirit.” Actually, the guy who was supposed to catch me sorta pulled me down to the ground. :mad:

I’m sorry to burst your bubble: but I can say from personal experience that in some cases people do get pushed to the ground even when they have not been slain in the Spirit.

Although I attend a Charismatic prayer group in my area, I have yet to receive any of the special gifts. I am very wary of being slain in the Spirit, for one because it is not Biblical–unlike some other aspects of the Charismatics.

In any case, I honestly don’t know what to make of the Charismatic group to which I go. They are very friendly, but oftentimes they seem more Protestantized than most Catholics. For example, they spoke highly of a priest who claimed to have a “born again” experience when he was given the baptism of the Spirit. I find this really odd because in most other ways they are highly devoted to the Catholic faith.
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Hi Madaglan, Just wanted you to know that the presence of the Holy Spirit was there. It was you who did not sense its presence.You cannot come up for prayer with a spirit of doubt and expect to witness the presence of the Holy Spirit.The power of the Holy Spirit can work on you without anyone touching you.You were not open and you did not recieve. Simple as that!. God will not equip you with His Gifts if you are not ready to recieve them. You must be open with a wanting desire in your heart and trust in Him for what He has instore for you.God Bless. ;)P/s. I am in agreement that no one should push you down for that is the work of the Holy Spirit. 👍
 
Gnome 👋

I am very interested in your post referring to Cardinal Suenens. Can you clarify some things for me?


  1. *]Can you give us primary sources?
    *]Were these Malines documents authoritative or personal?
    *]What are the Malines documents?
    *]Who do these directives affect and where / when? CCR only? Entire Church? Private prayer groups? Religious orders? :confused:

    Talking to a CCR leader in our diocese, he never heard of this directive. He also commented that it is not uncommon for directives to be given for the CCR. When this does occur, the CCR in our diocese are obedient.

    Thanks!

    :blessyou:
 
hi Johnq,
I heard about the Six Malines Document from Fr. Bain and trust his judgment. I have not read the whole document and have no idea what’s in the other Five… but here’s what I found on Cardinal Suenens’ books:

Book I : A New Pentecost?
Book II : Malines Document
  1. Pastoral Orientations
    2. Ecumenism

    Book III : Malines Document
    1. Charismatic Renewal and Social Action: A Dialogue
      1. Renewal and the Powers of Darkness
      2. A Controversial Phenomenon: Resting in the Spirit
        “The fifth Malines Document, Nature and Grace, A Vital Unity, is not given in this new edition since it does not relate straightfully to the Renewal in the Spirit”
 
And little review on Malines Document No.6 :

From the back cover:

"Since the onset of the Charismatic Renewal within the main Christian Churches in the late 1960’s one phenomenon at least has caused controversy and concern.

It has been described in Pentecostal terms as ‘resting in the Spirit’, ‘slain in the Spirit’, or ‘overpowering of the Spirit’ and it usually consists of falling (usually backwards) while engaged in a prayer or healing service.

The phenomenon is by no means new, having been found in the revivals of New England and in the West in earlier centuries. But it is the more recent claims that the phenomenon is a manifestation of the Holy Spirit that have been causing concern in the Church.

In this book (Malines Document No. 6) Cardinal Suenens, a firm supporter of the Charismatic Renewal, examines the phenomenon and analyses the historical background and the theoretical arguments produced in defense of authenticity.

With the benefit of his theological insight and pastoral experience Cardinal Suenens concludes that ‘resting in the spirit’ not only is not a manifestation of the power of the Holy Spirit but it threatens the authenticity and credibility of the Charismatic Renewal."
 
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misericordie:
Let’s alway be very careful to DISERN THE SPIRITS TO SEE IF THEY ARE FROM GOD as Saint Paul warns, and SAINT Ignatius of Loyola. Let’s not forget the devil can do sign and wonders too, or even make people levitate too.:yup:
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You do need the gift of discernment. This is true that the devil can do many signs, however the devil cannot bring peace. Only the Holy Spirit can.

I attended a healing retreat over the weekend and was prayed over. I rested in the Spirit ( you are not unconscious by the way - you are fully conscious but in pure peace). I feel such peace and joy in my life which is a gift that ONLY the Holy Spirit can give.

I am blesses to have such peace amidst my tumultuous life. I really have no worries and that is due to God.
 
JMJ
Gnome :tiphat:

Thanks for the info.

Are these books authoritative / binding?

More primary sources please, especially concerning the authoritative nature of the documents.

God bless. :amen:

Happy Thanksgiving. :dancing:
 
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jrabs:
I attended a healing retreat over the weekend and was prayed over. I rested in the Spirit ( you are not unconscious by the way - you are fully conscious but in pure peace). I feel such peace and joy in my life which is a gift that ONLY the Holy Spirit can give.

I am blesses to have such peace amidst my tumultuous life. I really have no worries and that is due to God.
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Its amazing when we give of ourselves 100% to the Lord how he reveals HIS secrets. This is one of them. Praise God :thumbsup:
 
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SPOKENWORD:
Its amazing when we give of ourselves 100% to the Lord how he reveals HIS secrets. This is one of them. Praise God 👍
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Praise God. Yes it is amazing, indeed. However, it is a pity that it takes trials and hardships to bring us to our knees to finally give ourselves over to God. ( I guess the whole reason behind trials).
But better late than never!

God takes us any way He can get us.
 

If directives from Cardinal Suenens are ignored, then it’s against
God’s will? definitely, it’s not “earnestly strives to do God’s will”.​

How, then, can some people be at peace when they are obviously not following the will of God? Ignatius says that there are two contrasting states of soul:
  1. One whose fundamental life option is against God’s will. This
    person will be ‘consoled’ by the bad spirit, and disturbed by God’s Spirit.
  2. One who earnestly strives to do God’s will. This person is
    consoled by God, and disturbed by the bad spirit.
This idea of the bad spirit entering with a disturbance of your peace can be very helpful in identifying what is going on. You
may know that you are disturbed by what is going on, but you cannot put your finger on what is causing you to be uneasy.
As Ignatius says:

Like spirits will enter silently like one coming into a house with the doors open. Unlike spirits will enter with great noise and commotion.
 
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gnome:

If directives from Cardinal Suenens are ignored, then it’s against
God’s will? definitely, it’s not “earnestly strives to do God’s will”.​

How, then, can some people be at peace when they are obviously not following the will of God? Ignatius says that there are two contrasting states of soul:
  1. One whose fundamental life option is against God’s will. This
    person will be ‘consoled’ by the bad spirit, and disturbed by God’s Spirit.
  2. One who earnestly strives to do God’s will. This person is
    consoled by God, and disturbed by the bad spirit.
This idea of the bad spirit entering with a disturbance of your peace can be very helpful in identifying what is going on. You
may know that you are disturbed by what is going on, but you cannot put your finger on what is causing you to be uneasy.
As Ignatius says:

Like spirits will enter silently like one coming into a house with the doors open. Unlike spirits will enter with great noise and commotion.
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Thank you for excellent material on discernment.

Please verify if this was a directive or unauthoritative book. :confused:

The Cardinal could be personally opposed, but did not give a directive.

The info given does not prove that resting in the spirit is an act of disobedience

Please address this specific issue.

Thank you.

:blessyou:
 
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gnome:
Cardinal Suenens said “resting in the Spirit” is a mistake in his
Malign Documents:
parishmissions.com/six.html

And Fr.Bain said the same, not just an opinion but based on his many years CCR experience:
parishmissions.com/resting.html

CCR would not exist if it wasn’t for the support of Cardinal Suenens who was considered CCR top leader. If his statement is known and ignored, then it’s the spirit of disobedience.
Click to expand...
You’re almost right. Your link is not to the actual document itself but to a review of the document, thus a secondary source. Three publications were known collectively as the “Malines’ Documents”. They are out of print. The only place I know of where you can get your hands on them is in the book, Presence, Power, Praise: Documents on the Charismatic Renewal (1980)Collegeville, Minnesota; Liturgical Press, 1980, 3 vols… An Amazon search reveals one used copy costing $77, and several newer books which reference this work. A bookfinder search revealed four copies, prices ranging from $28 to $150.

The name “Malines” was used because the documents were issued under the authority of the Bishop of Malines (Brussels, Belgium), Joseph Cardinal Leon Suenens, who had served three Popes as pastoral advisor to the charismatic renewal. These documents deal with the following areas: Theological and Pastoral Orientations I (1974); Ecumenism II (1978); and Social Action III (1979). The principal author of these three documents however was NOT Suenens, but was the editor of Presence, Power, Praise, Kilian McDonnell. A monk of St. John’s Abbey in Collegeville, Minnesota, he has been called the man who contributed more to the creation of a charismatic theology for the traditional churches than any other single person.

The Malines document says NOT that the “resting in the Spirit” phenomenon is invalid, but that it should not be a part OF THE LITURGY, that is, not done during Mass. The CCR (Catholic Charsimatic Renewal) totally agrees and obeys this.

Be aware always that not every group which calls itself Catholic is under the authority of their bishop or obedient to Rome. The CCR is. Many charismatic groups are not.

That said, being “slain in the spirit” occurs fairly rarely in our specific covenant community, CCGD, almost always during a prayer service and when a person is being prayed over. Maybe twice a year? maybe less… NEVER during our Masses.
 
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Makerteacher:
The Malines document says NOT that the “resting in the Spirit” phenomenon is invalid, but that it should not be a part OF THE LITURGY, that is, not done during Mass. The CCR (Catholic Charsimatic Renewal) totally agrees and obeys this.

Be aware always that not every group which calls itself Catholic is under the authority of their bishop or obedient to Rome. The CCR is. Many charismatic groups are not.

That said, being “slain in the spirit” occurs fairly rarely in our specific covenant community, CCGD, almost always during a prayer service and when a person is being prayed over. Maybe twice a year? maybe less… NEVER during our Masses.
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Hi again,

Sorry I missed your post of greeting in the other thread. So

Hi from Staten Islandsmileys.smileycentral.com/cus/e_5_3.gif

Thanks for clearing up the misunderstanding regarding that reference—it didn’t seem right to me, but I didn’t have the actual reference to refute it.

The Vatican did issue a document

CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH

INSTRUCTION ON PRAYERS FOR HEALING

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20001123_istruzione_en.html
 
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johnq:
Thank you for excellent material on discernment.
Please verify if this was a directive or unauthoritative book. :confused:

The Cardinal could be personally opposed, but did not give a directive.

The info given does not prove that resting in the spirit is an act of disobedience

Please address this specific issue.
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sorry johnq, I posted all that I know. I don’t have these books, or know how to verify if this is a directive or not. But I trust Fr. Bain had done his reseach, I trust his discernment along with
other priests he mentioned in his analysis, and most importantly, his conclusion that the phenomenon is not inline with the Church Tradition.
 
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Makerteacher:
The Malines document says NOT that the “resting in the Spirit” phenomenon is invalid, but that it should not be a part OF THE LITURGY, that is, not done during Mass. The CCR (Catholic Charsimatic Renewal) totally agrees and obeys this.
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Hi MakerTeacher,
you have read the whole book, the full Malines’ Documents, or your conclusion is based on another review?

Also, in the actual Malines Document no.6, is it “liturgy” or “Liturgy”? You automatically assume it means the Mass Liturgy. According to dictionary:

1 often capitalized : a eucharistic rite
2 : a rite or body of rites prescribed for public worship
3 : a customary repertoire of ideas, phrases, or observances

Can you show me that these 3 statements are not from Cardinal Suenens? Or that they apply to only during the Mass Liturgy?
  • We would always discourage circumstances in which the phenomenon would occur.
  • We would not invite ministers whose prayer or teaching is associated with this phenomenon.
  • The Cardinal also quotes the German theologian, Professor Heribert Muhlen, " In accordance with the principle of the discernment of spirits, I believe that the phenomenon per se is of a psychological and therapeutic nature, and is out of place in a religious service."
 
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gnome:
sorry johnq, I posted all that I know. I don’t have these books, or know how to verify if this is a directive or not. But I trust Fr. Bain had done his reseach, I trust his discernment along with
other priests he mentioned in his analysis, and most importantly, his conclusion that the phenomenon is not inline with the Church Tradition.
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That’s right—You do not know, and Maker did post the explanation. There was something taken out of context, which distorted the meaning.
 
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Makerteacher:
You’re almost right. Your link is not to the actual document itself but to a review of the document, thus a secondary source. Three publications were known collectively as the “Malines’ Documents”. They are out of print. The only place I know of where you can get your hands on them is in the book, Presence, Power, Praise: Documents on the Charismatic Renewal (1980)Collegeville, Minnesota; Liturgical Press, 1980, 3 vols… An Amazon search reveals one used copy costing $77, and several newer books which reference this work. A bookfinder search revealed four copies, prices ranging from $28 to $150.

The name “Malines” was used because the documents were issued under the authority of the Bishop of Malines (Brussels, Belgium), Joseph Cardinal Leon Suenens, who had served three Popes as pastoral advisor to the charismatic renewal. These documents deal with the following areas: Theological and Pastoral Orientations I (1974); Ecumenism II (1978); and Social Action III (1979). The principal author of these three documents however was NOT Suenens, but was the editor of Presence, Power, Praise, Kilian McDonnell. A monk of St. John’s Abbey in Collegeville, Minnesota, he has been called the man who contributed more to the creation of a charismatic theology for the traditional churches than any other single person.

The Malines document says NOT that the “resting in the Spirit” phenomenon is invalid, but that it should not be a part OF THE LITURGY, that is, not done during Mass. The CCR (Catholic Charsimatic Renewal) totally agrees and obeys this.

Be aware always that not every group which calls itself Catholic is under the authority of their bishop or obedient to Rome. The CCR is. Many charismatic groups are not.

That said, being “slain in the spirit” occurs fairly rarely in our specific covenant community, CCGD, almost always during a prayer service and when a person is being prayed over. Maybe twice a year? maybe less… NEVER during our Masses.
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AMEN to this. Many “catholic” charismatics i know, left to enter the fundamentalist cults such as the "born agains or pentecostals. They start by attacking devotion to Mary(most heresies always did) the saints, and dogma. BE CAREFUL EVERYONE!!!
 
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gnome:
sorry johnq, I posted all that I know. I don’t have these books, or know how to verify if this is a directive or not. But I trust Fr. Bain had done his reseach, I trust his discernment along with
other priests he mentioned in his analysis, and most importantly, his conclusion that the phenomenon is not inline with the Church Tradition.
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I once attended a “catholic” charismatic gathering and this woman !!! Began running backwards!! while yelling: “The spirit is hear.” I thought i was at a wiccan gathering.:eek:
 
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misericordie:
I once attended a “catholic” charismatic gathering and this woman !!! Began running backwards!! while yelling: “The spirit is hear.” I thought i was at a wiccan gathering.:eek:
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Well, Misericordie,if thats true and you have been to a WICCA gathering you need to PM again so that I can pray over you for deliverance. :eek: Your EXORCIST at your service. :eek:
 
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