Socialism and Catholicism

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Aquinas11 said:
You went off topic asking when do cops use guns and when do they not? Such as asking “is the guy violently attacking police officers”? WAY OFF TOPIC
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What force are they using then to force charity?
 
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Limankaro said:
Many decisions have come to play a role in Sweden failure… maybe failure is abit harsh, but ”momentum towards failure” for sure
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Where does this perception come from? I am not finding evidence online. What is used to measure success or failure?
 
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I agree. Jesus and the Apostles taught Christian socialism. Sadly, many Catholics and Protestants refuse to accept this because of their political ideologies. But scripture says otherwise. There’s many more examples of Christian socialism. Acts 4:32 would almost be a form of Christian communism, but instead of being forced, the Holy Spirit put it on the peoples heart to give, sell their extra homes, give the money to the Apostles to distribute the wealth. Then when Ananias and his wife Sapphira, lied about it, God struck them down. Acts 5:1-11

Don’t like this idea, then argue that with God.
 
EvangelistVictor said:
I agree. Jesus and the Apostles taught Christian socialism. Sadly, many Catholics and Protestants refuse to accept this because of their political ideologies. But scripture says otherwise. There’s many more examples of Christian socialism. Acts 4:32 would almost be a form of Christian communism, but instead of being forced, the Holy Spirit put it on the peoples heart to give, sell their extra homes, give the money to the Apostles to distribute the wealth. Then when Ananias and his wife Sapphira, lied about it, God struck them down. Acts 5:1-11

Don’t like this idea, then argue that with God.
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I don’t think anyone is arguing in favour of lying.
 
CorydonMundi said:
It amounts to several billion dollars a year which is used to subsidize their social programs.
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I thought you were referring to their economy being at risk, due to reliance on oil exports, which turns out to be only 4% of their exports.

If it is social programs you are worried about, then the entire economy supports that, no? Not just the oil exports.
 
Thanks for all the courteous, thoughtful and respectful replies. I am pleased the thread has caused such interest.

In general I agree with the points made. Nowadays the term socialism has a variety of meaning and does not always imply the condemnation of all private ownership. Many considered socialist do not advocate extreme views contrary to the Church.
 
Also worth noting that the violent rape rate of Sweden is 635.52 per million (ranked 3rd in the world), while the US is 274.04 per million (ranked 9th). Also there are 15% more police officers per capita ( 280.5 per 100k pop) in Sweden than in the US ( 243.6 per 100k).
 
Indeed, though Sweded uses different methodologies to measure the numbers than many other places making it harder to compare. See below.

In the US we spend a ton of time on overtime for police, not sure if the same is true in Sweden.

Rape in Sweden - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
 
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LeafByNiggle said:
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OnAJourney:
The problem with being a Catholic and adhering to socialism is that socialism and other far left ideologies like say communism are built upon materialism as a foundation. Socialism and communism as ideologies are against people owning virtually anything. The Catholic position contradicts that.
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When you define socialism so narrowly then it does not apply to many of the policies that some people call socialism, such as universal health care. That is definitely not condemned by Church teaching.
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The problem with Universal Health Care is that the only way for it to function is if the entire system is in the control of the State. The State determines levels of coverage, payments to medical professionals and what will and won’t be treated.

What those countries with Universal Health Care are finding is that as the population ages and there are less and less financial (name removed by moderator)uts into the system relative to the needs of the aging and medically demanding population that cuts to health care have to come from somewhere.

That is why euthanasia is rapidly becoming the goto to solution to cull out of the system those who are too much of a draw (physically or mentally) on medical resources. Euthanasia (both passive and active) is on the rise throughout the world.

I would be very wary of turning over life and death decisions to the State, especially those that are socialist in outlook where the “good of society” supercedes individual rights.
Once the Netherlands authorized euthanasia for physical illnesses in 2002, demands to extend this “right” to the suffering mentally ill were inevitable and, indeed, logically consistent.

Canadians are now debating how to implement last year’s ruling by their Supreme Court establishing a right to “physician-assisted dying” in cases of a “grievous and irremediable medical condition.” A panel of experts advising Ontario and 10 other provinces and territories has urged the ruling be construed to include mental illness.

And why not? The Canadian Supreme Court’s opinion specifically said that, in Belgium and the Netherlands, the “predicted abuse and disproportionate impact on vulnerable populations has not materialized.”
Europe’s ‘cure’ for autism is euthanasia
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HarryStotle said:
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LeafByNiggle:
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OnAJourney:
The problem with being a Catholic and adhering to socialism is that socialism and other far left ideologies like say communism are built upon materialism as a foundation. Socialism and communism as ideologies are against people owning virtually anything. The Catholic position contradicts that.
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When you define socialism so narrowly then it does not apply to many of the policies that some people call socialism, such as universal health care. That is definitely not condemned by Church teaching.
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The problem with Universal Health Care is that the only way for it to function is if the entire system is in the control of the State. The State determines levels of coverage, payments to medical professionals and what will and won’t be treated.
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This is a long way from the “entire system” being controlled by the state. But if what you say is true, what do you say of the fact that we already have and have had for a long time universal health care for everyone over 65? Has that been the disaster you predict? If Universal Health Care is so terrible in general, why isn’t it just as terrible when applied to everyone over 65?
 
NoelFitz said:
Christian Socialism claims to be based on the teaching of Jesus and we read in the Bible ‘The community of believers was of one heart and mind, and no one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they had everything in common (NAB, Acts 4:32).
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In other words, a political state was not involved in the common ownership, at all, correct?

No problem.

We can all find others with whom to voluntarily share ownership of goods. Good luck finding those around you that would trust with equal responsibility for putting into and taking out of the common pooling of goods. Go ahead, get started with your friends and acquaintances. Prove it can be done on a small scale, then come back and we will talk.

As far as the Church is concerned, that group of individuals best suited to common ownership is called the family.

For some reason, modern socialists want to dismantle the family and replace it with dependency upon the State. I wonder why?

If it is difficult to find people around us that we would trust to share ownership of goods with, what makes us think sharing our personal wealth with the entire population will end up as some idyllic utopia? It won’t happen. Human beings are fallen creatures and such a move will spiral into the same murderous regimes as riddled the 20th century when the powerful amongst us get just a small taste of the control they can achieve by persuading the gullible into turning their lives and fealty over to those who will “look after” them.

Yeah, no thanks. That experiment has been tried repeatedly with the same results. Death and mayhem.

As far as I can see this world is not comprised of saints.
 
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LeafByNiggle said:
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HarryStotle:
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LeafByNiggle:
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OnAJourney:
The problem with being a Catholic and adhering to socialism is that socialism and other far left ideologies like say communism are built upon materialism as a foundation. Socialism and communism as ideologies are against people owning virtually anything. The Catholic position contradicts that.
Click to expand...
When you define socialism so narrowly then it does not apply to many of the policies that some people call socialism, such as universal health care. That is definitely not condemned by Church teaching.
Click to expand...
The problem with Universal Health Care is that the only way for it to function is if the entire system is in the control of the State. The State determines levels of coverage, payments to medical professionals and what will and won’t be treated.
Click to expand...
This is a long way from the “entire system” being controlled by the state. But if what you say is true, what do you say of the fact that we already have and have had for a long time universal health care for everyone over 65? Has that been the disaster you predict? If Universal Health Care is so terrible in general, why isn’t it just as terrible when applied to everyone over 65?
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I am in Canada, by the way. A place with universal health care. Most who can afford it will carry additional private coverage. We are beginning to see the drawbacks of a universal system under stress when those under 65 will be unable to provide for the needs of those over 65.

You don’t have to take my word for it. Keep your eyes and mind open to what is about to happen over the next 10 years.
 
Thanks for the informative article showing that Sweden is far more inclusive in reporting incidents of rape and uses a wider definition than other European countries and the US. This approach will further awareness and efforts to curb the behavior.
 
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HarryStotle said:
Most who can afford it will carry additional private coverage.
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I am supposing that an insurance company will be happy to sell you whatever you want.
What extra coverage would you want, in addition to your basic coverage that you get now?
HarryStotle said:
We are beginning to see the drawbacks of a universal system under stress when those under 65 will be unable to provide for the needs of those over 65.
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How are you going to buy life insurance when you are 65? With no universal healthcare?
Actuarial tables are your friend.

If you’re rich enough, you can pay as you go. If you have no insurance, first you go broke, then you die. Single payer universal healthcare looks after everyone.
 
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I’m with you Aquinas. The reason many of us who shout “socialism” at everything is because:
  1. Socialism removes the individual from making the contribution / charity.
  2. Socialism has shown over and over again to be less effective when programs are performed at a centralized level (aka: national government) because they become overly bloated bureaucracies that become wasteful and corrupted due to the enormity (see next point).
  3. Socialism led by a centralized government is not efficient as the local or the individual level. Your neighbors and your city knows what it needs better than what some bureaucrat knows.
  4. Socialism often leads to additional removals of rights.
  5. It reduces entrepreneurial spirit and leads to collectivism and reduced productivity.
  6. Socialism governed at the national level abides by the law of unintended consequences and ultimately is wasteful and destructive in ways not always seen when only viewing the direct impact.
 
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