Socialism and Catholicism

[JoeFreedom]

Please stop with the “Jesus was a communist” line. It’s false and divisive. Catholicism shows no preference to prudence in how a country governs, allowing only that we do not become outright communists or capitalists. And Jesus wasn’t a liberal or a conservative for that matter either.

This whole argument is disingenuous. Please stop.

 

[Crocus]

Please stop with the “Jesus was a communist”

He had one post and never said communist.

 

[HarryStotle]

HarryStotle:

Most who can afford it will carry additional private coverage.

I am supposing that an insurance company will be happy to sell you whatever you want.
What extra coverage would you want, in addition to your basic coverage that you get now?

Dental, vision, pharmaceuticals are not covered. There are a number of other items that are covered additionally such as travel insurance.

The issue isn’t so much the basic coverage, but the cost of it when income tax and private coverage are added together. The question is whether ~$8000+ / year, all in, over a lifetime is completely worth the price and the quality/extent of care.

While Americans pine for ‘Medicare for all,’ Canadians look for US-style private insurance - Washington Examiner

About 56% of people in the United States favor "Medicare for all," according to polling from the Kaiser Family Foundation out last week. That's an increase of 3 percentage points from last November.That majority would be wise to take a look across our northern border. Waits for care in Canada's...

www.washingtonexaminer.com

 

[Crocus]

Dental, vision, pharmaceuticals are not covered. There are a number of other items that are covered additionally such as travel insurance.

I would totally go for adding some or all of dental, vision, drugs to universal healthcare.

Travel insurance, no, you should pay for that yourself; how much is that worth in the $8000 per year that you estimate?

My BIL doesn’t bother with travel coverage. He will just get himself airlifted home. Me, I takes my chances, healthy enough, for now.

 

[HarryStotle]

If you’re rich enough, you can pay as you go. If you have no insurance, first you go broke, then you die. Single payer universal healthcare looks after everyone.

Perhaps. The problem with looking after everyone is that everyone assumes they will be looked after, which means they are more liable to make use of the system when they don’t need to and that spikes the cost for everyone. They are also less likely to be concerned about looking after their own health because they will be “taken care of.”

Personally, I would like to see a true cost benefit analysis looking at how all of those factors impact the cost burden to everyone as opposed to when physicians deal privately with actual costs to them.

Vision and dental care are good examples of how insurance coverage spikes the cost charged by the professionals for services.

Try getting quotes, for example, from an auto collision repair shop comparing the difference between what they will charge you and what they will charge your insurance company.

 

[HarryStotle]

HarryStotle:

Dental, vision, pharmaceuticals are not covered. There are a number of other items that are covered additionally such as travel insurance.

I would totally go for adding some or all of dental, vision, drugs to universal healthcare.

Are you certain of that?

I mean you could go years and decades spending $8000+ per year while healthy. Take my case, for example, the cost to me only since I started teaching at age 29 has been at least $8000 per year X 36 years = $2 880 000. I am certain that my actual use of that amount has been a small fraction, maybe 10% (being very generous) of the total over those years. Add my family and it might be 30% of the total. Although the total paid for that coverage would go higher since my spouse and children paid income taxes while they worked. Worth it? I don’t see it.

 

[Crocus]

The problem with looking after everyone is that everyone assumes they will be looked after, which means they are more liable to make use of the system when they don’t need to and that spikes the cost for everyone.

Doctors decide what you need. I trust my doctor, not insurance companies to approve or deny, for what deductible, or whether my doctor or technician is “in the system,” so many horror stories and surprises. Not worth it. Insurance company control of healthcare is a disaster.

I am certain that my actual use of that amount has been a small fraction, maybe 10%

Complaining you didn’t get your money’s worth? Rather than appreciating your good health and the care you are getting?

 

[JoeFreedom]

Acts 4:32 would almost be a form of Christian communism

Um yes, he implied Jesus was a communist, because since Jesus is God, and the bible is the Word of God, and Acts is a book of the bible, thus his declaration that Acts 4:32 is a form a (whatever) “Christian” communism (is)…

 

[HarryStotle]

HarryStotle:

The problem with looking after everyone is that everyone assumes they will be looked after, which means they are more liable to make use of the system when they don’t need to and that spikes the cost for everyone.

Doctors decide what you need. I trust my doctor, not insurance companies to approve or deny, for what deductible, or whether my doctor or technician is “in the system,” so many horror stories and surprises. Not worth it. Insurance company control of healthcare is a disaster.

You think government control would not be a disaster?

 

[JoeFreedom]

I would agree with you that the current system needs improvement. However, there is a great saying, “Don’t just do something, stand there!” It means that simply doing something isn’t always the best thing. Now, agreed, there are issues with the insurance industry as it is today, but total government-controlled and centralized universal healthcare is NOT the answer.

 

[Crocus]

Um yes, he implied Jesus was a communist

Oh I see. You are saying in your opinion, “he implied.” Not quite the same thing as “he said.” I understand.

 

[JoeFreedom]

Okay, then I want to know exactly what EvangelistVictor meant by Jesus taught Christian socialism and Acts is almost a form of communism. Don’t say things that can easily lead people to believe one thing. This is obviously towing the line that socialism and communism are endorsed and taught by our Savior.

 

[AlNg]

I want to know exactly what EvangelistVictor meant by Jesus taught Christian socialism and Acts is almost a form of communism.

Well it says it right there in Acts: “No one claimed that any of their possessions was their own, but they shared everything they had.” Isn’t that theoretically a type of communism ?

 

[HarryStotle]

HarryStotle:

The problem with looking after everyone is that everyone assumes they will be looked after, which means they are more liable to make use of the system when they don’t need to and that spikes the cost for everyone.

Doctors decide what you need. I trust my doctor, not insurance companies to approve or deny, for what deductible, or whether my doctor or technician is “in the system,” so many horror stories and surprises. Not worth it. Insurance company control of healthcare is a disaster.

I am certain that my actual use of that amount has been a small fraction, maybe 10%

Complaining you didn’t get your money’s worth? Rather than appreciating your good health and the care you are getting?

I am certain good health is all a passive thing. No responsibility for maintaining it, just appreciation for having it?

Yeah, no. God has been good, and he doesn’t charge a dime.

Don’t get me wrong. The medical profession is by and large a blessing, but that isn’t because of government meddling. It is in spite of it. I have two members of my family who are physicians. They keep me informed. The cost of the system will reach a breaking point at some time in the near future.

 

[HarryStotle]

JoeFreedom:

I want to know exactly what EvangelistVictor meant by Jesus taught Christian socialism and Acts is almost a form of communism.

Well it says it right there in Acts: “No one claimed that any of their possessions was their own, but they shared everything they had.” Isn’t that theoretically a type of communism ?

Nope. It is free association.

You are free to practice it with whomever you please even today in the free market economy.

There was no move by the early Church to force or even persuade the State to adopt it and foist the “theoretical” communism on everyone.

 

[Crocus]

You think government control would not be a disaster?

You are still talking about healthcare right? The Canadian universal healthcare system is not government controlled. The doctor decides, not the state, not the insurance company.

The system is well funded, services are well managed by the Provincial College of Physicians and Surgeons who are far better managers than a bevy of private for-maximum-profit insurance companies could ever do.

 

[JoeFreedom]

Absolutely it is not. Communism is totalitarian and atheistic. Communism is a system of government that exists to remove any individualism from the person and give it a centralized government, where every aspect of life, including money, labor, production, is controlled by a select few with total authority, and all power. Any progress towards individualism or personal effort to differentiate is met with absolute end, as all must be equal in every way, and no one may own any possessions.

 

[HarryStotle]

HarryStotle:

You think government control would not be a disaster?

You are still talking about healthcare right? The Canadian universal healthcare system is not government controlled. The doctor decides, not the state, not the insurance company.

It is well funded, well managed by the Provincial College of Physicians and Surgeons who are far better managers than a bevy of private for-maximum-profit insurance companies could ever do.

What, exactly, does the doctor decide?

You do understand that the State decides …

1. how much the doctor will be paid for each service,
2. which services doctors can provide
3. how many appointments the doctor can have during clinic hours,
4. the cost of drugs,
5. which drugs will be covered (most dispensed are not covered)
6. the number of doctors permitted to practice in any location,
7. how many nurses will be hired by the hospital and
8. the # of hours they will be paid at what wage,
9. the budget of each hospital
10. which medical services can be provided by the private sector (not many)

The provincial colleges do not “manage” the system, they negotiate with the State what doctors will be permitted to do/not do and at what remuneration level.

 

[Crocus]

What, exactly, does the doctor decide?

You do understand that the State decides …

1. how much the doctor will be paid for each service,
2. which services doctors can provide
3. how many appointment the doctor can have during clinic hours,
4. the cost of drugs,
5. which drugs will be covered (most dispensed are not covered)
6. the number of doctors permitted to practice in any location,
7. how many nurses will be hired by the hospital and
8. the # of hours they will be paid at what wage,
9. the budget of each hospital
10. which medical services can be provided by the private sector (not many)

The provincial colleges do not “manage” the system, they negotiate with the State what doctors will be permitted to do/not do and at what remuneration level.

I like it!

The doctor does the diagnosis and decides the best outcome for the patient, NOT the most profitable for him/her, nor the insurance company.

The outcome speaks for itself.

 

[HarryStotle]

HarryStotle:

What, exactly, does the doctor decide?

You do understand that the State decides …

1. how much the doctor will be paid for each service,
2. which services doctors can provide
3. how many appointment the doctor can have during clinic hours,
4. the cost of drugs,
5. which drugs will be covered (most dispensed are not covered)
6. the number of doctors permitted to practice in any location,
7. how many nurses will be hired by the hospital and
8. the # of hours they will be paid at what wage,
9. the budget of each hospital
10. which medical services can be provided by the private sector (not many)

The provincial colleges do not “manage” the system, they negotiate with the State what doctors will be permitted to do/not do and at what remuneration level.

I like it!

The doctor does the diagnosis and decides the best outcome for the patient, NOT the most profitable for him/her, nor the insurance company.

The patient has no say in your calculus? I can see why you have a preference for abdicating personal responsibility and handing it over to your doctor and the State.

The problem is for those – you might eventually understand – who are in most serious jeopardy. Due to exceptional needs /stress on the system, the government can and does (quite frequently) not permit certain expensive procedures or medications. Neither the doctor nor the patient has any say because it won’t be covered and it would be illegal for the doctor to provide.