'Sola Caritas' Trumps 'Sola fide'

[JonNC]

Lol! That’s proof you’re upset because you can’t support your opinion. Anyone can show outrage to pretend they are correct. But the fact is that I’ve supported my opinion with facts and you have not been able to provide any data to support your contention.

Outrage.

 

[mcq72]

That is precisely what happens in the Sacraments.(doers of law being justified)

“But that in the law no man is justified with God, it is manifest: because the just man liveth by faith.” Gal 3:11

“Not by works of righteousness…” Titus 3: 5

Sacraments didn’t do the trick in OT, no different in NT. Grace and faith come first and is underlying premise for any pleasing of God.

“And by him [Christ] all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.” Acts 13:39

“For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is
guilty of all.” James 2:10

The Law of Works is part and parcel to the Law of Faith.

We are not to rest on our works…the above contradicts Paul.

“Do we boast by law of works, no, but by law of faith”.

With good deeds, faith is made perfect

Yes, good deeds rest upon foundation laid by grace in faith…in His good deeds.

“Even the righteousness of God (without the law) which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all that believe” Rom:3:22

Or an oft used Calvin quote:

“It is therefore faith alone which justifies, and yet the faith that justifies is not alone.”
http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/sdg/calvin_trentantidote.html

Antidote to Canon 11

In the Sacraments, those who keep the Law are justified when they call on the name of the Lord.

So if you keep the Law God will hear you, justify you? It contradicts even your sacraments of baptism and reconciliation, where you call on the name of the Lord precisely because you have not kept the Law.

 

[De_Maria]

De_Maria:

That is precisely what happens in the Sacraments.(doers of law being justified)

“But that in the law no man is justified with God, it is manifest: because the just man liveth by faith.” Gal 3:11

What you fail to understand is that God justifies those who do the law.

“Not by works of righteousness…” Titus 3: 5

The next four words are key:

which we have done

God does not justify anyone who has not done works of righteousness.

Sacraments didn’t do the trick in OT,

There were no Sacraments in the OT.

no different in NT.

Very different. Jesus Christ established His Sacraments of grace in the NT. It is through the Sacraments that we receive saving grace. That is the revealed way you can receive it. God has revealed no other way to receive saving grace. Not even by doing the Law.

Grace and faith come first and is underlying premise for any pleasing of God.

Correct.

“And by him [Christ] all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.” Acts 13:39

Yeah. In Baptism.

cont’d

 

[De_Maria]

cont’d

“For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is
guilty of all.” James 2:10

What do you think that means?]

We are not to rest on our works…the above contradicts Paul.

We don’t rest on our works. We have obey God and therefore do as He commands.

“Do we boast by law of works, no, but by law of faith”.

We don’t boast at all. You boast that your faith saves you. This is plainly against Scripture. You will find no one in Scripture boasting that they are so faithful that they must be saved.

Yes, good deeds rest upon foundation laid by grace in faith…in His good deeds.

Faith alone is dead.

“Even the righteousness of God (without the law) which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all that believe” Rom:3:22

Yeah, the righteousness that God gives to the believer who submits to Baptism when He washes Him of all his sins.

Or an oft used Calvin quote:
?
?“It is therefore faith alone which justifies, and yet the faith that justifies is not alone.”
http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/sdg/calvin_trentantidote.html

Whether it was Calvin or Luther, that quote remains an oxymoron. The first part says, we are saved by faith alone. The second part says we are not saved by faith alone. Both parts cancel each other out.

Antidote to Canon 11

Neh. It’s a nonsensical statement.

So if you keep the Law God will hear you, justify you?

Correct.

It contradicts even your sacraments of baptism and reconciliation, where you call on the name of the Lord precisely because you have not kept the Law.

You made that up. Here’s what the Church Teaches:

Council of Trent VI
Chapter VI
CHAPTER VI.

The manner of Preparation.

Now they (adults) are disposed unto the said justice, when, excited and assisted by divine grace, conceiving faith by hearing, they are freely moved towards God, believing those things to be true which God has revealed and promised,-and this especially, that God justifies the impious by His grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus; and when, understanding themselves to be sinners, they, by turning themselves, from the fear of divine justice whereby they are profitably agitated, to consider the mercy of God, are raised unto hope, confiding that God will be propitious to them for Christ’s sake; and they begin to love Him as the fountain of all justice; and are therefore moved against sins by a certain hatred and detestation, to wit, by that penitence which must be performed before baptism: lastly, when they purpose to receive baptism, to begin a new life, and to keep the commandments of God.

 

[mcq72]

Now they (adults) are disposed unto the said justice, when, excited and assisted by divine grace, conceiving faith by hearing, they are freely moved towards God, believing

Funny how a dead man in trespasses and sin can get excited over the Word and believe…before baptism.

 

[De_Maria]

De_Maria:

Now they (adults) are disposed unto the said justice, when, excited and assisted by divine grace, conceiving faith by hearing, they are freely moved towards God, believing

Funny how a dead man in trespasses and sin can get excited over the Word and believe…before baptism.

Why is that funny?

 

[mcq72]

The first part says, we are saved by faith alone. The second part says we are not saved by faith alone. Both parts cancel each other out.

One does not cancel the other out. But is built upon it, or comes from it

 

[De_Maria]

De_Maria:

The first part says, we are saved by faith alone. The second part says we are not saved by faith alone. Both parts cancel each other out.

One does not cancel the other out. But is built upon it, or comes from it

It literally say we are saved by faith alone but not by a faith which is alone. Thus, they cancel each other out. It is a mere dance to get around the Word of God which says, “by works a man is justified, not by faith alone.”

 

[mcq72]

Why is that funny?

Repentance, the work of God, is going from default state of unbelief in the gospel to belief. There is the change, even new life, before any baptismal waters. What you are saying is that unregenerated flesh can proclaim sincerely and with joy that Christ is Lord…to me makes no sense…believing is the work of all works…the beginning of new life…leading to baptism, evidence of a sealed deal.

 

[mcq72]

Just that you cancel out dozens of verses that say it is not by works, at all.

By no human work is a man born again.

 

[De_Maria]

Repentance, the work of God, is going from default state of unbelief in the gospel to belief.

Repentance is by the grace of God, but doesn’t the individual have to act upon that grace?

There is the change, even new life, before any baptismal waters.

Where does new life come before Baptism? Can you show me in Scripture?

What you are saying is that unregenerated flesh can proclaim sincerely and with joy that Christ is Lord…

Yes.

to me makes no sense…

I know. I’ve spoken to many non-Catholics who say so. Hm…how to explain? I’ll have to pass on that, for now. Maybe another Catholic can weigh in.

believing is the work of all works…the beginning of new life…leading to baptism, evidence of a sealed deal.

Why does Scripture say this and how do you read it?

Romans 6:4 New International Version (NIV)
4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

 

[JonNC]

Repentance is by the grace of God, but doesn’t the individual have to act upon that grace?

Yes, “when, excited and assisted by divine grace, conceiving faith by hearing, they are freely moved towards God…”.

It literally say we are saved by faith alone but not by a faith which is alone. Thus, they cancel each other out.

You have been informed frequently that they do not cancel each other. You have been informed frequently what the sola means, and that it doesn’t mean the exclusion or elimination or the diminishing of the necessity of good works.
At some point, the accusation that it does becomes uncharitable and disingenuous.
Just like I don’t get to say what Catholicism teaches, you don’t get to say what Lutheranism teaches, or Calvinism teaches.

 

[De_Maria]

Yes, “when, excited and assisted by divine grace, conceiving faith by hearing, they are freely moved towards God…”.

Agreed.

You have been informed frequently that they do not cancel each other.

I can read it for myself and see that it is a self contradicting statement.

You have been informed frequently what the sola means, and that it doesn’t mean the exclusion or elimination or the diminishing of the necessity of good works.

Do you hold Scripture as your highest authority? yes or no.

James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

At some point, the accusation that it does becomes uncharitable and disingenuous.

You mean that I must believe that something says what it does not say in order to be charitable and sincere? I don’t think so. The emperor is not wearing clothes.

Just like I don’t get to say what Catholicism teaches, you don’t get to say what Lutheranism teaches, or Calvinism teaches.

But I do get to call out a contradiction when I see it. A faith that is not alone can’t be described as faith alone. That makes no sense. If you want to believe a nonsensical statement, have at it.

 

[JonNC]

You mean that I must believe that something says what it does not say in order to be charitable and sincere? I don’t think so. The emperor is not wearing clothes.

What you must believe is that when someone tells you what they believe, to say they believe something different is uncharitable and disingenuous. You don’t have to agree with the belief, but to accuse someone of believing something they do not is uncharitable.

But I do get to call out a contradiction when I see it. A faith that is not alone can’t be described as faith alone. That makes no sense. If you want to believe a nonsensical statement, have at it.

Not if your accusation of a contradiction is not what someone else says is not a contradiction. That’s what the eighth commandment is all about.
I will defend Catholics when they are accused in this way. I have done it numerous times since I joined CAF. I expect the same charity in return.

 

[De_Maria]

What you must believe is that when someone tells you what they believe, to say they believe something different is uncharitable and disingenuous.

I don’t dispute that he and YOU believe that faith alone saves. I even believe you when you say that YOU believe that faith alone is accompanied by works. But, I refuse to believe that the words “we are saved by faith alone but not by a faith which is alone” is not self contradicting.

I don’t dispute what you believe. But that statement is still an oxymoron.

You don’t have to agree with the belief, but to accuse someone of believing something they do not is uncharitable.

To continue to accuse me of something that I have repeatedly disproved, is also uncharitable.

Not if your accusation of a contradiction is not what someone else says is not a contradiction.

Lol! You don’t get to rewrite the laws of logic nor the rules of grammar. The statement is self contradicting. If you personally want to twist it to mean what it doesn’t say, that is your business.

That’s what the eighth commandment is all about.

Neh. The eighth commandment doesn’t address illogical English sentence arrangements.

I will defend Catholics when they are accused in this way. I have done it numerous times since I joined CAF. I expect the same charity in return.

Then you need to quit falsely accusing me of being uncharitable just because you don’t agree with my opinions. Saved by faith alone but not by a faith that is alone, is a self contradicting statement. Whether you like it, or not.

 

[JonNC]

I don’t dispute that he and YOU believe that faith alone saves. I even believe you when you say that YOU believe that faith alone is accompanied by works. But, I refuse to believe that the words “we are saved by faith alone but not by a faith which is alone” is not self contradicting.

Then you’re okay when someone says that when Catholics say their prayer to Mary isn’t the same as prayer to God, they really don’t mean it.
It is contradictory. Prayer is prayer. Catholics really worship Mary.

I don’t dispute what you believe. But that statement is still an oxymoron.

I don’t dispute what you believe, but prayer is prayer.

Neh. The eighth commandment doesn’t address illogical English sentence arrangements.

But it does address bearing false witness.

Then you need to quit falsely accusing me of being uncharitable just because you don’t agree with my opinions.

I haven’t accused you of being uncharitable. Go back and look.

Saved by faith alone but not by a faith that is alone, is a self contradicting statement. Whether you like it, or not.

And praying to Mary is just like worshiping her.

For the record, I do not believe Catholics worship Mary.

 

[JonNC]

Lol! You don’t get to rewrite the laws of logic nor the rules of grammar. The statement is self contradicting. If you personally want to twist it to mean what it doesn’t say, that is your business.

You don’t get to rewrite the meanings intended in the words. The use of sola has been explained to you.
Whether or not you think it is a twisting of the meaning is irrelevant. If you want to have a conversation about it, the meaning is as those who use it mean it.

To continue to accuse me of something that I have repeatedly disproved, is also uncharitable.

I’ve made no accusation of you. Go back and read.

 

[De_Maria]

Then you’re okay when someone says that when Catholics say their prayer to Mary isn’t the same as prayer to God, they really don’t mean it.

It is contradictory. Prayer is prayer. Catholics really worship Mary.

You can look at my record and see what I tell them. I take them to Scripture.

I don’t dispute what you believe, but prayer is prayer.

Exactly. I pray thee, will you repeat what you just said?

That’s a prayer.

But it does address bearing false witness.

I’m the one telling the truth. I’m pointing out the fact that the sentence you use to justify your unbiblical doctrine, is illogical.

I haven’t accused you of being uncharitable. Go back and look.

If you haven’t accused me of being uncharitable, then why are you complaining about the statement I made?

And praying to Mary is just like worshiping her.

I can prove, from Scripture, that it’s not. But you can’t prove that the statement you made is not illogical. Nor can you prove that faith alone is in accordance with Scripture.

For the record, I do not believe Catholics worship Mary.

Great

 

[JonNC]

You can look at my record and see what I tell them. [I take them to Scripture.

Doesn’t matter. Pray means pray.

Exactly. I pray thee, will you repeat what you just said?

That’s a prayer.

Nope. You mean prayers to Mary are the same as that to God. You’re twisting the meaning.

I can prove, from Scripture, that it’s not. But you can’t prove that the statement you made is not illogical.

Nope. You can’t. prayer means prayer.

Nor can you prove that faith alone is in accordance with Scripture.

Not in the way you misrepresent it.

Great

Of course.

 

[De_Maria]

Doesn’t matter. Pray means pray.

It sure does:

pray
synonyms: say one’s prayers, be at prayer, make one’s devotions; More
adverbFORMAL•ARCHAIC

1. used as a preface to polite requests or instructions.
   “pray continue”

Nope. You mean prayers to Mary are the same as that to God. You’re twisting the meaning.

Nope. I mean that prayers to Mary are requests for intercession.

Nope. You can’t. prayer means prayer.

Sure I can. One thing I’d like to point out.

I mean what I say.
But you admitted that you don’t believe that Catholics worship Mary.

You are being disingenuous.

Not in the way you misrepresent it.

If Scripture is your highest authority, then you should also disavow the term, “faith alone”.

James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.