'Sola Caritas' Trumps 'Sola fide'

[mcq72]

Repentance is by the grace of God, but doesn’t the individual have to act upon that grace?

yes , it is called believing, which is actually receiving the gift of faith…beyond that Paul speaks of the heart believing unto righteousness and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation, as in out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.

like a baby is just born does it have to act ? why yes it has to have that first breath, and begin to eat thru the mouth etc, but i would still say the baby was, a human, way before those two life continuing actions.

Where does new life come before Baptism? Can you show me in Scripture?

“and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.”

“Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven.’’…most adults confess this before even being considered to be a candidate for baptism

Jesus certainly forgave sins, declared folks righteous, without baptism, during His ministry.

I know. I’ve spoken to many non-Catholics who say so. Hm…how to explain? I’ll have to pass on that, for now. Maybe another Catholic can weigh in.

understand…as humans we love rituals, signs etc. Ps’ have same problem with saying a sinners prayer, going up to the altar, and baptism for many also…we are all in the same boat, that salvation, the regeneration and washing by the Holy Ghost, is an internal thing, this new birth. Jesus says good deeds and doing all the "sacraments/rituals " will be done by some but falsely and will be rejected. So the sacraments are not effectual for some. It has to be a genuine internal event, and the debate for any regenerational deed or action/baptism will be argued till His return…both sides use scripture…both sides have experiences that they align with scripture interpretation.

Romans 6:4 New International Version (NIV)
4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

yes and other scriptures (Acts 2:38, Mark 16:16, 1,Peter 3:21,Acts 22:16,) contribute to the discussion

Jews at that time were not lost to spiritual realities and symbols of those realities, especially when baptism was usually immediate upon believing.

I mean Paul here is giving the realities behind the symbolism of baptism, for we are not literally buried with Christ but symbolically thru baptism…all I can say is that something in us must die before our spirits are empowered to receive faith and confess belief, repenting of unbelief, as we do before water baptism.

 

[JonNC]

James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Amen. And there you have the doctrine. Justification is by grace alone , through faith alone. And it must be a faith that works through love, as the apostle tells us.

You are being disingenuous.

Indeed. To make the point that Catholicism gets to decide what Catholics teach. Not me. Not any non-Catholic.

 

[mcq72]

But I do get to call out a contradiction when I see it.

I must agree with Jon…that you are “calling” a “protestant term” thru Catholic lens which distorts P intent.

 

[mcq72]

illogical English sentence arrangements.

perhaps you be motivated towards simplicity (too much trouble to take off Catholic lens)…i mean seems like simple English when the Word talks of what to call teachers, instructors, rabbis etc., with the admonition to “call no man father”…yet what do we do ?..simply read does injustice doesn’t it ?

Lol…Was gonna say there are plenty other examples , but I see Jon provided another one about prayer to Mary.

 

[De_Maria]

perhaps you be motivated towards simplicity (too much trouble to take of Catholic lens)…i mean seems like simple English when the Word talks of what to call teachers,

But we’re not talking about Scripture. We’re talking about something which some claim Luther said and some claim Calvin said. Who ever said it, it is illogical.

instructors, rabbis etc., with the admonition to “call no man father”…yet what do we do ?..simply read does injustice doesn’t it ?

It is not Catholics who oversimplify it. It is P’s. They always neglect to mention that he also says, do not be called teacher, master or rabbi. Why is that?

And, it is Catholics who understand the logic behind it. It is not contradictory. Jesus is simply saying that the true, Teacher, Master, Rabbi and Father, is in heaven.

De_Maria:

Repentance is by the grace of God, but doesn’t the individual have to act upon that grace?

yes , it is called believing,

No. It is called “Godly sorrow”, it is the detestation and regret of our sins.

2 Corinthians 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

which is actually receiving the gift of faith…

The gift of faith is given first. Godly sorrow, repentance, is an additional work which we must do to perfect our faith and to ensure our election.

beyond that Paul speaks of the heart believing unto righteousness and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation, as in out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.

Which is the confession we must make when we submit and accept the washing of regeneration in baptism.

like a baby is just born does it have to act ? why yes it has to have that first breath, and begin to eat thru the mouth etc, but i would still say the baby was, a human, way before those two life continuing actions.

A baby is a human from the time it is conceived.

“and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.”

That says nothing about new life. Here is where it is given:

Romans 6:4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

cont’d

 

[De_Maria]

cont’d

…most adults confess this before even being considered to be a candidate for baptism

But they must do it also when they are baptized.

Jesus certainly forgave sins, declared folks righteous, without baptism, during His ministry.

And Jesus continues to forgive sins and declare folks righteous, through Baptism.

understand…as humans we love rituals, signs etc. Ps’ have same problem with saying a sinners prayer, …

Good point. If the P’s can say the sinner’s prayer before justification, then a man can call Jesus Christ, Lord, before regeneration.

I think the problem is that P’s confuse any inspiration of the Holy Spirit with the indwelling. But, in Scripture, we see that even Pagans who hated Israel could be influenced by God’s Spirit.

Numbers 22:9And God came unto Balaam, and said, What men are these with thee?

…both sides use scripture…both sides have experiences that they align with scripture interpretation.

Yes, but we hold Sacred Tradition. The New Testament was written after the ritual of Baptism was already established Jesus Christ and commanded by Him that the Church should practice. The New Testament had not yet been written when Jesus uttered these words. The New Testament is a record of what He said.

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

yes and other scriptures (Acts 2:38, Mark 16:16, 1,Peter 3:21,Acts 22:16,) contribute to the discussion

Jews at that time were not lost to spiritual realities …I mean Paul here is giving the realities behind the symbolism of baptism, for we are not literally buried with Christ but symbolically thru baptism…all I can say is that something in us must die before our spirits are empowered to receive faith and confess belief, repenting of unbelief, as we do before water baptism.

Amen. But it is in water Baptism that God gives us the gift of the Holy Spirit and washes our souls of sin.

De_Maria:

But I do get to call out a contradiction when I see it.

I must agree with Jon…that you are “calling” a “protestant term” thru Catholic lens which distorts P intent.

P intent contradicts the logical meaning of the statement. The fact remains and is immutable. Two contradictory ideas can’t be true at the same time.

If we are justified by faith alone. We are not justified by a faith which is not alone. Two contradictory statements can’t be true at the same time. And by you combining them into one sentence, doesn’t make the contradiction disappear. And by you repeating them over and over, doesn’t make the contradiction disappear, either.

You can believe a lie if you want to. But you won’t put me on that wagon. I’m just here to point out your error.

 

[De_Maria]

De_Maria:

James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Amen. And there you have the doctrine. Justification is by grace alone , through faith alone. And it must be a faith that works through love, as the apostle tells us.

I don’t know by what stretch of the imagination you came up with that twist of Scripture. St. James is saying that “faith without works is faith alone and therefore, dead.”

He equates faith without works to faith alone. Anyone who claims to hold Scripture as their highest authority would hold this as the definition of faith alone. But, you merely twist right out from under the authority of Scripture and impose the man made definition which you are currently defending.

Indeed. To make the point that Catholicism gets to decide what Catholics teach. Not me. Not any non-Catholic.

And now, you admit it. You therefore, are not here to either pass on truth nor to defend it. You are merely here to multiply words and perhaps think that this way, you make yourself sound important.

Too bad.

 

[JonNC]

I don’t know by what stretch of the imagination you came up with that twist of Scripture. St. James is saying that “faith without works is faith alone and therefore, dead.”

He equates faith without works to faith alone.

Indeed. All through St Paul’s letters we read that justification comes to us by faith, and not by works of the law. Paul reminds us in Galatians, however, as does James here, of what kind of faith justifies. A faith that justifies is a faith that works through love. A faith that is active in caring for our neighbors.
A dead faith does not justify. A dead faith is mere belief, an intellectual assent.

In all of the confessional writings of the Lutheran reformers, not once is sola fide described as a faith that is contrary to Galatians 5:6, or James.
So, clearly, when I speak of faith alone I am not speaking of a faith that doesn’t work. The “alone” describes how we access grace. It does not describe, as you insist on claiming, the kind of faith that justifies.

As any thinking person can see, the term does not contradict the meaning.

You can believe a lie if you want to. But you won’t put me on that wagon.

First, Lies are told with a deliberate attempt to deceive, usually for personal gain of some sort. Beliefs expressed are not lies.
Second, no one here has asked to change your beliefs. I do recall, however, that you have stated that your goal is to get “Protestants” become Catholic. That’s fine, though your apologetics more than likely has the opposite effect.

 

[JonNC]

And now, you admit it. You therefore, are not here to either pass on truth nor to defend it. You are merely here to multiply words and perhaps think that this way, you make yourself sound important.

That you are incapable of intellectually understanding that I was using your very own tactic against, using invocation as a mere example, that is what is sad.

 

[mcq72]

But we’re not talking about Scripture.

Actually you were talking about plain English, an understanding of language, which both Scripture and Luther/ Calvin use.

It is not Catholics who oversimplify it. It is P’s

Exactly, and vice versa here with the solas.

PS- not all folks oversimplify a writing, (those being discussed here).

 

[Johan]

I don’t know by what stretch of the imagination you came up with that twist of Scripture. St. James is saying that “faith without works is faith alone and therefore, dead.”

But to illustrate his point, James does not select a sequence of events in Abraham’s life, saying “Look here how his faith worked through love.” For instance, he could easily have quoted the glowing review that God gives of his life in Gen. 26:5, but doesn’t. In fact, he does not talk about habitual works at all. Instead, he selects one single episode (the so-called Aqedah, the “binding of Isaac”) to make his point! Abraham’s faith was put to the test (Gen. 22:1, cf. Jas. 1:3) and he passed the test. His work manifested his faith.

He equates faith without works to faith alone.

It should be noted that James is using “alone” (μόνον) in an adverbial sense. So rather than speaking of a hypothetical faith that is “alone” (adjectival use of “alone”), he is, instead, saying that man is not only justified by faith. As I wrote in another thread, it is comparable to saying that one can order vegetarian dishes in the restaurant and not meat dishes alone (adverbial use of “alone”). So the famous verse James 2:24 is by no means a refutation of the notion of justification by faith, but rather a complementary perspective. We may be justified by works as well.

 

[mcq72]

No. It is called “Godly sorrow”, it is the detestation and regret of our sins.

understand …the ministry of Holy Spirit convicts the world, us, of sin, judgement and righteousness, from without. This is the drawing by the Father to the Son. One is not saved yet, born again yet at this stage. One does not believe yet but is drawn to call out for salvation, to believe, to repent of unbelief, even to ask for faith to call Jesus Lord, to put to death self that can only deny the truth. This is an internal affair. It is not sacramental yet. It requires hearing or reading the Word of God, the gospel even, aspects of the church being the pillar of truth.

God fulfills His promise, that those that call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. He by grace grants the faith even the will, to proclaim Jesus as Lord, Savior, Messiah etc…, regenerating a spirit dead in trespasses and sin thru the such internal repentance at hearing the gospel. Not only then is one born again, but the Holy Spirit then indwells in this new heart, and aids in such utterances, as a Seal.

In my experience, and of many in Scripture, this happens before baptism but the internal is played out externally in baptism of water and even further baptism of Holy Spirit.

I would also say not to put the workings of the Spirit on a sacramental/ ritual/ institutional box, for He shows us in Acts that He can work internally as He pleases.

So I don’t think I am confusing external workings of Holy Spirit that you call inspiration and I add are a " drawing" of a dead man, and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in a new alive man, nor His baptism in Holy Spirit…all of which the apostles received apart from any water baptism.

 

[Johan]

Indeed. All through St Paul’s letters we read that justification comes to us by faith, and not by works of the law. Paul reminds us in Galatians, however, as does James here, of what kind of faith justifies. A faith that justifies is a faith that works through love. A faith that is active in caring for our neighbors.
A dead faith does not justify. A dead faith is mere belief, an intellectual assent.

In all of the confessional writings of the Lutheran reformers, not once is sola fide described as a faith that is contrary to Galatians 5:6, or James.
So, clearly, when I speak of faith alone I am not speaking of a faith that doesn’t work. The “alone” describes how we access grace. It does not describe, as you insist on claiming, the kind of faith that justifies.

As any thinking person can see, the term does not contradict the meaning.

From one Evangelical to another (although I am of the Calvinist/Reformed ilk), I see a certain risk involved in linking James 2 with Gal. 5:6. I do not think that James is actually indicating that there are two “kinds” of faith—one that is alive and one that isn’t. This could even be taken to mean that there actually might be such a thing as a dead faith in Christ (a notion I find absurd)! A person with a sensitive conscience, seeing him-/herself as the sinner (s)he is, might question his/her faith on the basis of his/her works. “Am I sufficiently loving to assert that I have a saving faith in Christ?”

In my opinion, some Evangelicals (over-)emphasize the notion of “faith that works” to the point that the resulting doctrine becomes practically indistinguishable from the Catholic teaching in this matter. “We are justified by faith that works” is in my view merely theoretically different, but not practically different, from the Catholic “we are justified by faith and works.” This tendency is sometimes described as “sneaking works through the backdoor.” That kind of gospel is also no consolation to the believer who is convicted of his/her sinfulness. “Is my faith true and thereby salvific?” is the question that will trouble such a believer. I think that Luther’s own words on this matter give an important clue to what the Gospel really is about:

Now the true Gospel has it that we are justified by faith alone, without the deeds of the Law. The false gospel has it that we are justified by faith, but not without the deeds of the Law. The false apostles preached a conditional gospel. So do the papists. They admit that faith is the foundation of salvation. But they add the conditional clause that faith can save only when it is furnished with good works. This is wrong. The true Gospel declares that good works are the embellishment of faith, but that faith itself is the gift and work of God in our hearts. Faith is able to justify, because it apprehends Christ, the Redeemer. (Martin Luther, Commentary on the Epistle to the Galatians)

 

[mcq72]

The gift of faith is given first. Godly sorrow, repentance, is an additional work which we must do to perfect our faith and to ensure our election.

Yes and no. I agree that works and repentance are predicated by faith.

But as to initial salvation I believe Godly sorrow is work of the Spirit on an unregenerated spirit/ dead man, showing Him he has no Godly faith, only worldly faith. The Spirit says this must be repented of, even to ask for it.

Which is the confession we must make when we submit and accept the washing of regeneration in baptism.

I believe the washing and regeneration occur first internally, giving us a clean conscience, knowing by faith that His blood cleanses us, and we gladly obey for more good conscience and are baptized.

Again, I have never heard an initial denouncement of sin, even faith in its forgiveness and utterance of His Lordship, after coming out of the water but always, always before the water.

 

[mcq72]

A baby is a human from the time it is conceived.

Amen. So it is with new life in our spirit being born again. It is before baptism, just as we surely believe life begins before delivery.

But they must do it also when they are baptized.( confess Jesus)

And up until the day we die…again when it is first uttered is sign of new life, just as when it is last uttered.

And Jesus continues to forgive sins and declare folks righteous, through Baptism.

Yes. And before baptism and afterwards…right up till and including when we see Him at His judgement Seat.

 

[mcq72]

And by you repeating them over and over, doesn’t make the contradiction disappear, either.

Well, you repeatedly also contradict all the scriptures that abhor salvation by works…you go half and half, half works half faith…we go full justifying faith as foundation for full works justifying our faith…or something like that lol

I think I abhor the idea that a person can truly have faith in the blood of Christ but not be justified until he does a work.

 

[JonNC]

I understand your concern.
All through the Lutheran Confessions, and in Luther’s commentary on Galatians, we hear that a true faith is a living active faith, one that performs works of love.
Those works do not save, but are evidence of true faith. These are commands of Christ. What kind of faith defies His commands? Certainly not a living, saving faith.
Luther’s commentary on Galatians 5:6-

Faith must of course be sincere. It must be a faith that performs good works through love. If faith lacks love it is not true faith. Thus the Apostle bars the way of hypocrites to the kingdom of Christ on all sides. He declares on the one hand, “In Christ Jesus circumcision availeth nothing,” i.e., works avail nothing, but faith alone, and that without any merit whatever, avails before God. On the other hand, the Apostle declares that without fruits faith serves no purpose. To think, “If faith justifies without works, let us work nothing,” is to despise the grace of God. Idle faith is not justifying faith. In this terse manner Paul presents the whole life of a Christian. Inwardly it consists in faith towards God, outwardly in love towards our fellow-men.

He doesn’t sat “can be”, or “might be”, or even “ought to be”. He says “must be”.

“Idle faith is not justifying faith”.

I believe James is saying essentially the same thing.

 

[Johan]

Those works do not save, but are evidence of true faith. These are commands of Christ. What kind of faith defies His commands? Certainly not a living, saving faith.

If what you are writing here is representative of Lutheranism, then I fail to see any substantial soteriological difference between Catholicism and Lutheranism. Both theological traditions stress that we are not saved by good works, but that good works are nonetheless necessary for our salvation. It is no wonder that many Catholic converts on this site seem to come from Lutheranism.

Faith does not defy commands, nor does not obey commands. Faith is faith; its essence is to trust God and His promises. One might argue, however, that those that God has granted faith He will also grant good works through the indwelling Spirit. But we are never justified because of the quality of our faith, but because of the object of our faith, which is Christ and Him crucified.

“Idle faith is not justifying faith”.

Paul superficially says the opposite.

However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. (Rom. 4:5)

Paul does, of course, not promote idleness, but he nonetheless states that we are neither justified because of our godliness nor because of our inclination to do good works. We are justified solely on the basis of the salvific work of Christ received by faith. Interesting times when I find (parts of) Protestantism “not Evangelical enough.”

 

[TULIPed]

Is it not true though Johan, that good works can be evidence off lively faith? I know that it’s possible to have saving faith in Christ and have no evidence of that faith - the thief on the cross comes to mind - but is this not the exception to the rule? It’s also possible of course to do good works and have no faith.

As a believer though, practically speaking - are we not always on the lookout for the Holy Spirit active in our lives - helping us overcome that which without Him would otherwise be insurmountable?

 

[Johan]

Is it not true though Johan, that good works can be evidence off lively faith?

I would rather put it like this: good works are evidence of the presence of the indwelling Spirit who also grants us faith. However, I would never look at or into myself to obtain the assurance that I am saved. If I want to know that I am saved from my sin, I will fix my eyes on the cross of Christ every day of the week. This is perhaps why I forewarned you that my beliefs may be a bit extreme even for Calvinists because I believe that Christ essentially saved His elect when He exclaimed: “It is finished” (rather than at the point in time when the believer receives Christ). Our salvation is entirely His work and at no point and in no respect a “cooperation” between God and man.

Just to reinforce my point: a couple of years ago I accidentally listened to a few speeches made by a certain preacher named Paul Washer. Although he is said to be a Calvinist, every cell in my body reacted negatively to his message—“this just does not feel right.” It appears that he promotes something called “Lordship Salvation” and the thrust of his teaching was that we ought to seek signs of “true” faith in ourselves by the works we do (“true” faith is “evidenced” by obedience). Although that superficially sounds reasonable, I consider it at odds with the Gospel. “Nothing in my hand I bring; simply to Thy cross I cling” is the motto of my faith.