'Sola Caritas' Trumps 'Sola fide'

[TULIPed]

Ok. You my friend are the new King of the CAF Calvinist Leper colony. @HopkinsReb are you paying attention? I submit to you, as Moderator of the “CAF Burn the Calvinists at the Stake Committee”, that @Johan here needs to be on the list - WAY ahead of me.

You sir drove past “Perseverance of the Saints” at 100mph and just waved. Impressive.

 

[Wannano]

TULIPed:

Is it not true though Johan, that good works can be evidence off lively faith?

I would rather put it like this: good works are evidence of the presence of the indwelling Spirit who also grants us faith. However, I would never look at or into myself to obtain the assurance that I am saved. If I want to know that I am saved from my sin, I will fix my eyes on the cross of Christ every day of the week. This is perhaps why I forewarned you that my beliefs may be a bit extreme even for Calvinists because I believe that Christ essentially saved His elect when He exclaimed: “It is finished” (rather than at the point in time when the believer receives Christ). Our salvation is entirely His work and at no point and in no respect a “cooperation” between God and man.

Just to reinforce my point: a couple of years ago I accidentally listened to a few speeches made by a certain preacher named Paul Washer. Although he is said to be a Calvinist, every cell in my body reacted negatively to his message—“this just does not feel right.” It appears that he promotes something called “Lordship Salvation” and the thrust of his teaching was that we ought to seek signs of “true” faith in ourselves by the works we do (“true” faith is “evidenced” by obedience). Although that superficially sounds reasonable, I consider it at odds with the Gospel. “Nothing in my hand I bring; simply to Thy cross I cling” is the motto of my faith.

I agree with you completely, I think. Salvation is a free gift, delivered to mankind within the framework of “it is finished”, however, if I receive a gift and never unwrap it and accept it as my own (believing as in John 3:16) then I am not clinging to the cross, am I?

 

[Johan]

Ok. You my friend are the new King of the CAF Calvinist Leper colony. @HopkinsReb are you paying attention? I submit to you, as Moderator of the “CAF Burn the Calvinists at the Stake Committee”, that @Johan here needs to be on the list - WAY ahead of me.

You sir drove past “Perseverance of the Saints” at 100mph and just waved. Impressive.

I can see a crowd of people with torches and pitchforks gathering. Happy to relieve you of the “worst heretic of the month” title. Now you will appear sane in comparison.

 

[TULIPed]

It’s not that bad really. Most everyone here is pretty nice about it. I must say I am glad to have you here though. At least now I’ve got a chance to be faster than you when one of us says something that starts with “But what about Ephesians 1…”. I ran track in middle school - you’ve been warned my 5 pointed friend.

Seriously though - you write well. It’s good to have you on the board.

 

[mcq72]

Am reminded of a quip that when we get to the Pearly Gates there will he a sign posted reading, something akin to, “well done for ye have chosen wisely on whom to serve.” per Joshua 24. After passing thru the gate the sign reads something akin to “you have been predestined before the foundations of the world were laid”.

But agree He enables even our will to will what once we would not.

 

[Johan]

I agree with you completely, I think. Salvation is a free gift, delivered to mankind within the framework of “it is finished”, however, if I receive a gift and never unwrap it and accept it as my own (believing as in John 3:16) then I am not clinging to the cross, am I?

I essentially agree, although if I should stick to your metaphor I would say that I am not saved because I unwrap the gift. Rather, whenever I open the package (since God has kept nagging on me to do so for quite a while), I find a note saying: “See you in Heaven, my child.”

 

[Wannano]

Wannano:

I agree with you completely, I think. Salvation is a free gift, delivered to mankind within the framework of “it is finished”, however, if I receive a gift and never unwrap it and accept it as my own (believing as in John 3:16) then I am not clinging to the cross, am I?

I essentially agree, although if I should stick to your metaphor I would say that I am not saved because I unwrap the gift. Rather, whenever I open the package (since God has kept nagging on me to do so for quite a while), I find a note saying: “See you in Heaven, my child.”

I agree, we not only have to unwrap it we must sincerely want it when we see it and claim it for our own. Unlike a child who opens a Christmas present looks at it and then immediately goes to the tree to see if something more exciting is there.

 

[TULIPed]

Speaking of metaphors - if you really want to get things stirred up around here - I mean no kidding, grab all your stuff and run from the hills, throw down the potter and the clay. In fact, now that I think about it Johan, you’re the perfect guy to start a “Potter and the Clay” thread (said as I slowly back away from the discussion while slipping off my slippers and putting on my running shoes…)

 

[Johan]

Speaking of metaphors - if you really want to get things stirred up around here - I mean no kidding, grab all your stuff and run from the hills, throw down the potter and the clay. In fact, now that I think about it Johan, you’re the perfect guy to start a “Potter and the Clay” thread (said as I slowly back away from the discussion while slipping off my slippers and putting on my running shoes…)

I’ve been properly trained to discuss such matters down at the CARM boards (where the really bad heretics hang around). I have to confess that could I not resist smirking when one Catholic insisted that clay actually has free will. Guess he must have got it mixed up with quicksand. I’ll consider your offer.

 

[HopkinsReb]

TULIPed:

Ok. You my friend are the new King of the CAF Calvinist Leper colony. @HopkinsReb are you paying attention? I submit to you, as Moderator of the “CAF Burn the Calvinists at the Stake Committee”, that @Johan here needs to be on the list - WAY ahead of me.

You sir drove past “Perseverance of the Saints” at 100mph and just waved. Impressive.

I can see a crowd of people with torches and pitchforks gathering. Happy to relieve you of the “worst heretic of the month” title. Now you will appear sane in comparison.

To be clear, because you’re new here, I’m doing schtick.

 

[Wannano]

Speaking of metaphors - if you really want to get things stirred up around here - I mean no kidding, grab all your stuff and run from the hills, throw down the potter and the clay. In fact, now that I think about it Johan, you’re the perfect guy to start a “Potter and the Clay” thread (said as I slowly back away from the discussion while slipping off my slippers and putting on my running shoes…)

The two of you must have some kind of secret code you use to communicate. I cannot seem to break it to decipher what is being said!

 

[JonNC]

If what you are writing here is representative of Lutheranism, then I fail to see any substantial soteriological difference between Catholicism and Lutheranism.

There are plenty of soteriological differences, but that doesn’t exclude soteriological convergences.
As for the Lutheran view, I’d point you to the confessions, particularly in this case, the Epitome.

Here are some excerpts, but the entirety is worth reading.

1. That good works certainly and without doubt follow true faith, if it is not a dead, but a living faith, as fruits of a good tree.

1. We believe, teach, and confess also that good works should be entirely excluded, just as well in the question concerning salvation as in the article of justification before God,…

1. We believe, teach, and confess also that all men, but those especially who are born again and renewed by the Holy Ghost, are bound to do good works.

1. Accordingly, we also believe, teach, and confess that when it is said: The regenerate do good works from a free spirit, this is not to be understood as though it is at the option of the regenerate man to do or to forbear doing good when he wishes, and that he can nevertheless retain faith if he intentionally perseveres in sins.

 

[mcq72]

agree, we not only have to unwrap it we must sincerely want it when we see it and claim it for our own. Unlike a child who opens a Christmas present looks at it and then immediately goes to the tree to see if something more exciting is there.

Yes, but I think he even gives those desires. I think where choice or maybe initiative comes in is not justification /salvation but in sanctification, the working out the works He has planned out for us…like the talents parable…each of us having varying fruits, or return on investment…yet even here God gets the glory through He shares it , heaps it on us also…go figure…lol

 

[JonNC]

TULIPed:

Ok. You my friend are the new King of the CAF Calvinist Leper colony. @HopkinsReb are you paying attention? I submit to you, as Moderator of the “CAF Burn the Calvinists at the Stake Committee”, that @Johan here needs to be on the list - WAY ahead of me.

You sir drove past “Perseverance of the Saints” at 100mph and just waved. Impressive.

I can see a crowd of people with torches and pitchforks gathering. Happy to relieve you of the “worst heretic of the month” title. Now you will appear sane in comparison.

Wow! For followers of Luther, as has been alleged , you guys sure didn’t follow very well

 

[De_Maria]

Amen. So it is with new life in our spirit being born again. It is before baptism, just as we surely believe life begins before delivery.

But it is at Baptism that we are born again. But, yes, that is true.

And up until the day we die…again when it is first uttered is sign of new life, just as when it is last uttered.

Agreed.

Yes. And before baptism

Nope. Baptism is the doorway to the Sacraments. There is no washing of sins before Baptism.

and afterwards…

Those who have received Baptism will continue to receive Sanctifying grace in the Sacraments. But not those who don’t.

Those who do not receive the Sacraments, live under the law of works. Not the Law of Grace. The Sacraments are the instruments whereby a man receives the grace which Christ gave us when He died upon the Cross.

right up till and including when we see Him at His judgement Seat.

Amen. But, those who undergo the Sacraments are judged by Christ, everytime they attend the Sacraments. Therefore, it is said:

1 Peter 4:17For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Well, you repeatedly also contradict all the scriptures that abhor salvation by works…

On the contrary, Scripture Teaches that those who do good deeds will be saved. Not those who don’t.

Listen:

Romans 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

I think I abhor the idea that a person can truly have faith in the blood of Christ but not be justified until he does a work.

A person who does not obey God, does not have faith in the blood of Christ.

Hebrews 5:9And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

 

[ATraveller]

Rest what case? You haven’t made a discernible case.

Some here who point out “our” problems might want to look at the Satan is figurative thread in the Catholic News forum. At least some of “our” denominations are quick to remove pastors who would even dare to express something like that twice.

 

[De_Maria]

Wow! For followers of Luther, as has been alleged , you guys sure didn’t follow very well

Even Lutherans don’t follow Luther very well. As I pointed out. Luther taught double predestination. Lutherans don’t.

And, where did Calvin learn the doctrines of sola fide and sola scriptura?

Calvin followed Luther. Initially, at least. That’s why he called him, “father”.

 

[mcq72]

A person who does not obey God, does not have faith in the blood of Christ.

And His first command is to repent, be born again, to believe.

On the contrary, Scripture Teaches that those who do good deeds will be saved. Not those who don’t.

If we are judged by our deeds we are in trouble

Or indeed doers of good deeds indeed will be saved, but not by their good deeds. The saved will do good deeds.

Hebrews 5:9And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him

Yes. The justified are graced to be obedient and even perfected in faith and deed.

Romans 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Yes, indeed obey the law perfectly and you shall be justified. He goes on to say none have done this save One, and you better rest on His perfection, propitiation.

But it is at Baptism that we are born again. But, yes, that is true.

If it were only so.

Nope. Baptism is the doorway to the Sacraments. There is no washing of sins before Baptism.

Well Jesus did it often and the
Holy Ghost by washing of regeneration all the time.

Those who do not receive the Sacraments, live under the law of works. Not the Law of Grace.

So if you do something then He does something…per quid pro quo
…certainly doesn’t sound like grace, freely given but merited.

But, those who undergo the Sacraments are judged by Christ, everytime they attend the Sacraments

I would say we should judge ourselves more often than at sacraments, for He shall judge every thought and intent and deed to the last iota…He is ever present for such reflection.

 

[De_Maria]

And His first command is to repent, be born again, to believe.

His first command is to repent and turn to God in faith. Then he must obey God’s will. If he then submits to Baptism, God will judge his faith and if it is genuine, He will credit his faith as righteousness and give Him the gift of eternal life.

If we are judged by our deeds we are in trouble

2 Corinthians 5:10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Romans 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Or indeed doers of good deeds indeed will be saved, but not by their good deeds.

No. By the mercy of God.

The saved will do good deeds.

They had better. Or they too will be lost:

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Yes. The justified are graced to be obedient and even perfected in faith and deed.

That verse says that only those who obey God will be saved.

Yes, indeed obey the law perfectly and you shall be justified.

It doesn’t say anything about perfectly.

He goes on to say none have done this save One, and you better rest on His perfection, propitiation.

We do. That’s why we work.
1 Peter 2:21For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:

Oh, did you think that Jesus died upon the Cross so that you could sit on your laurels and claim to be saved?

If it were only so.

Scripture says so.

Well Jesus did it often and the
Holy Ghost by washing of regeneration all the time.

In Baptism.

So if you do something then He does something…per quid pro quo
…certainly doesn’t sound like grace, freely given but merited.

God doesn’t have to give us grace. He freely gives it to those whom He finds worthy.

I would say we should judge ourselves more often than at sacraments, for He shall judge every thought and intent and deed to the last iota…He is ever present for such reflection.

We obey His Will. He Judges us.

 

[Michael16]

Here’s a point to consider:

Conversion from sin is a matter of a change of heart. This change of heart comes from repentance. Not faith.

In Catholic theology, the starting point is God calls and then we answer Yes or No.

Two examples:

1. The Annunciation in which Our Lady answers with her Fiat.
2. The Proclamation of the Kingdom: Repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand.

In both cases, we see the freedom of human will in action.

For we see throughout Sacred Scripture, the saints are called by God without any saving faith conversions needed. To my mind, the Protestant concept of saving faith conversion seems to require a sudden, dramatic and unalterable change of heart. Nowhere in Sacred Scripture do I see evidence of these types of conversions. Even Abraham and Saint Paul.

Saint Paul’s conversion on the Road to Damascus was the result of an awe inspiring moment of revelation that leads to guilt and then repentance, not the saving faith regeneration as you seem to teach.

God calls us and we have the free will to answer Yes or No. When we answer Yes, God offers us the grace we need as we put in the lifelong effort of conversion from sin. The Church has the 7 Sacraments from which we draw grace that we need to live holy lives pleasing to God.

In Protestant doctrine, man has no free will and that’s a contradiction of Scripture.

In comparison, your doctrines seem to require God forcing grace upon you, willing or not; and you then experience conversion. God forcing things on people would make God the sort of God that would force Himself on others. How is that a loving God who wants hearts to turn to Him in love and truth? If love is forced; is that truly love?

Depending on your tradition, it’s a one and done conversion or a lifelong one. Once you convert, your traditions only have two valid Sacraments: Baptism and Matrimony.

Now, from some of your arguments, I see that our Protestant brothers and sisters seem to argue that baptism by faith, no where to be seen in Sacred Scripture; occurs; which then seems to render the Sacrament of Baptism to be redundant.