'Sola Caritas' Trumps 'Sola fide'

[mcq72]

No, mcq72. Faith is just the start point. Jesus calls on us to keep the 2 Great Commandments and the 10 Commandments.

Jesus said: Those who love me Keep and do my Commandments.

In addition: Jesus said: Only those who do the Father’s Will, i.e. works; will enter Heaven.

Jesus never taught the vanity of the Law.

didn’t say anything to contradict your post. You said it, faith is the beginning.

Correct that Jesus never taught the vanity of the Law, unless you are resting on it for your justification, showing forth ones own moral goodness towards appeasing God. Paul says it was a schoolmaster, to pount out your sin, even depravity or weakness to save oneself by it.

Intetesting you point out all the commandments dealing with the law , and love which I agree with, but fail to cite His commandment to believe, although you do correctly state faith is the beginning.

 

[Michael16]

I’m glad we can agree on something. But: I invite you to show me where in Scripture does Jesus say you only have to believe in order to be saved.

As I’ve already stated, Jesus taught works has a role in justification. Otherwise, Jesus would be contradicting Himself or making Himself out to be a liar.

Faith is only a starting point

 

[ltwin]

YES! But not by faith alone. One must make a personal act of faith and be baptized. If you believe and are baptized, you are saved.

But in the case of infants, it is the faith of the Church, not the individual. Isn’t that Catholic teaching?

 

[De_Maria]

De_Maria:

YES! But not by faith alone. One must make a personal act of faith and be baptized. If you believe and are baptized, you are saved.

But in the case of infants, it is the faith of the Church, not the individual. Isn’t that Catholic teaching?

It is the faith of the parents. The faith of the Church comes in every case. It is always the faith of the Church which bolsters the individual.

Faith and Baptism

1253 Baptism is the sacrament of faith.54 But faith needs the community of believers. It is only within the faith of the Church that each of the faithful can believe. The faith required for Baptism is not a perfect and mature faith, but a beginning that is called to develop. The catechumen or the godparent is asked: “What do you ask of God’s Church?” The response is: “Faith!”

1254 For all the baptized, children or adults, faith must grow after Baptism. For this reason the Church celebrates each year at the Easter Vigil the renewal of baptismal promises. Preparation for Baptism leads only to the threshold of new life. Baptism is the source of that new life in Christ from which the entire Christian life springs forth.

1255 For the grace of Baptism to unfold, the parents’ help is important. So too is the role of the godfather and godmother, who must be firm believers, able and ready to help the newly baptized - child or adult on the road of Christian life.55 Their task is a truly ecclesial function (officium).56 The whole ecclesial community bears some responsibility for the development and safeguarding of the grace given at Baptism.

 

[ltwin]

To a priest?

No.

What do you see as the Catholic concept of penance and why do you reject it?

You are born again in baptism. You later commit mortal sin and fall out of the state of grace. In penance, works of satisfaction are done leading to a new flow of sanctifying grace. So in essence, Catholics save themselves through something like a covenant of works with the help of the grace that flows from Christ through the church’s sacramental system.

Now, I"m not saying this is how Catholics necessarily would describe it but that is my takeaway.

Some claim it is necessary for obedience but not effectual. I think you are amongst that number.

I would say it is a means of grace for those being baptized in faith and for those who witness it when they recall their own baptism. It stirs up faith by making the Gospel visible and translatable to our senses.

Because of private interpretation of Scripture. I believe you are one who denied that Protestants had that option.

I believe that teaching should be proved by Scripture, and that nothing can be required for salvation that is not revealed in Scripture. I have no issue with confirmation as a ceremony, but I don’t believe it’s necessary.

So, you don’t even hold marriage as a Sacrament. If marriage is not a Sacrament to you, how do you define “sacrament”?

The sacraments of baptism and the Lord’s Supper were ordained by Christ as visible signs of our union with Christ and covenant relationship with God. Marriage and ordination are states of life allowed in the Scriptures, neither is required for salvation. Anointing of the sick, while a visible sign, was not instituted by Christ. It is also, unlike baptism and the Lord’s Supper, not a sign of our covenant relationship with God.

 

[De_Maria]

De_Maria:

To a priest?

No.

So, you don’t believe that a man can be an ambassador of Christ who beseeches us in place of God and prays for us in Christ’s stead? (2 Cor 5:20)

Was there an answer to this question? I didn’t see it.

What do you see as the Catholic concept of penance and why do you reject it?

I would say it is a means of grace for those being baptized in faith and for those who witness it when they recall their own baptism. It stirs up faith by making the Gospel visible and translatable to our senses.

But no dying with Christ and being regenerated. In your opinion, God does nothing through the water of Baptism?

I believe that teaching should be proved by Scripture,

Which of your teachings have you proved by Scripture?

and that nothing can be required for salvation

Who said that Confirmation was required for salvation?

that is not revealed in Scripture. I have no issue with confirmation as a ceremony, but I don’t believe it’s necessary.

And, basically, if you personally, don’t agree with it, it isn’t true. Is there any truth which is not generated by you?

The sacraments of baptism and the Lord’s Supper were ordained by Christ as visible signs of our union with Christ and covenant relationship with God. Marriage and ordination are states of life allowed in the Scriptures, neither is required for salvation.

Who said they were required for salvation?

Anointing of the sick, while a visible sign, was not instituted by Christ.

Then why did the Apostle Teach it? Christ told them to Teach all that He commanded. But you think they went around teaching things that Christ did not command?

It is also, unlike baptism and the Lord’s Supper, not a sign of our covenant relationship with God.

Anointing, i.e. Chrism, is not a sign of our covenant relationship? Yet you said, above that it is a sign. So, a sign of what if not our covenant relationship?

Thanks for responding and for your patience.

 

[De_Maria]

didn’t say anything to contradict your post. You said it, faith is the beginning.

Correct that Jesus never taught the vanity of the Law, unless you are resting on it for your justification, showing forth ones own moral goodness towards appeasing God. Paul says it was a schoolmaster, to pount out your sin, even depravity or weakness to save oneself by it.

Intetesting you point out all the commandments dealing with the law , and love which I agree with, but fail to cite His commandment to believe, although you do correctly state faith is the beginning.

Basically, you agree with everything he said. Yet, you sound as though you disagree. Like others here, you check all the Catholic boxes. But then you deny that you checked them. What’s up with that? Is it because you’re on a Catholic forum and your politely agreeing when you really don’t agree?

 

[mcq72]

I’m glad we can agree on something. But: I invite you to show me where in Scripture does Jesus say you only have to believe in order to be saved.

There are plenty, but John 3:16 comes to mind.

As I’ve already stated, Jesus taught works has a role in justification. Otherwise, Jesus would be contradicting Himself or making Himself out to be a liar.

Well, there are several scriptures that have works justify, but there are many more that says they do not. So to synthesize both, we say works show evidence of justification/ faith, and to clarify difference scripture calls it sanctification.

Faith is only a starting point

Yes agree and call it justification.

From there we differ on just what love and works and keeping commandments mean. For you it is further justification but it flies in the face of scriptures that oppose work justification. For me it is evidence of justification, it shows justification, and as you say is its role, even called sanctification.

John 3:15-18 show faith justification. The next three verses show fruits, works when justified, when one is already “in the light”… it is not works to get in the light.

 

[mcq72]

Like others here, you check all the Catholic boxes.

All but one, the one that conflicts with a box you just dont have.

 

[Michael16]

Saint John 3:15-18 has been misinterpreted to supposedly show faith justification. Now, when you arrive at Saint John 3:21 you see that when one does what is true comes to the light to show his deeds, works; have been wrought in God.

Saint John says this; not Our Lord Himself.

But still: You haven’t shown me where Jesus Himself states faith alone justification.

I’ve stated plenty of His quotes that prove otherwise.

So, all of this shows that faith is only a starting point, faith requires works for salvation and is buttressed and supported by works that works out our salvation.

Only those who do My Father’s Will shall enter Heaven.

What is Our Father’s Will?

To love God with all of our heart, mind, soul and strength and to love others as we would ourselves.

Love. That’s a verb. A verb is an action; a deed. Otherwise known as a work. Love, when listened to; prevents evil deeds and produces good deeds.

Doing love, not merely believing; is the way to enter Heaven. By Our Lord’s own Teaching.

Please show me otherwise, my friend.

 

[De_Maria]

All but one, the one that conflicts with a box you just dont have.

Did you read that before you posted it? I said you checked all the Catholic boxes and you say, “except the one that conflicts with a box that isn’t there”. If you total up the score, you still are left checking all the Catholic boxes since the one you did not check is not there.

Either that, or your admitting that you are in conflict with the Catholic Church on cooked up charges.

 

[De_Maria]

Michael16:

I’m glad we can agree on something. But: I invite you to show me where in Scripture does Jesus say you only have to believe in order to be saved.

There are plenty, but John 3:16 comes to mind.

You should have read a little bit further.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Basically, Jesus is saying that only those who do God’s will, will come to God to be justified.

John 3:15-18 show faith justification.

You read “faith alone” into it. But reading further, it is clear, that only those who do good will come to the light to be justified.

The next three verses show fruits, works when justified, when one is already “in the light”… it is not works to get in the light.

Neh. It is clear that those who are already doing good, come to the light. You have again, twisted the Scripture to suit your beliefs.

But he that doeth truth cometh to the light,

Jesus Christ is the light. And only those that DO good come to Him.

 

[mcq72]

But he that doeth truth cometh to the light,

Jesus Christ is the light. And only those that DO good come to Him.

And what is truth? That we are sinners (all have done evil deeds) and need salvation, even by mercy, by grace ? He that comes broken and contrite doeth truth, by coming as such and believing that He is a rewarder of such .

Your interpretation is old Pelagianism (well semi Pelagianism, for all agree initial justification is by grace/faith alone) , deemed heretical if you see any goodness outside of grace , outside of what God has wrought, as John indicates.

Calvin: "unless you choose to admit that some are upright and true, before they have been renewed by the Spirit of God,…Augustine says, that to do truth means “to acknowledge that we are miserable and destitute of all power of doing good;”

So again, we are not righteous because we do good.

The righteous are free (having their conscience clean by regeneration) to bring their works to be judged of God, but that in itself is not the means of righteousness.

 

[mcq72]

Basically, Jesus is saying that only those who do God’s will, will come to God to be justified.

We dont come to be justified. We come to show forth our works before the light…big difference.

“But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.”

Our deeds are judged.

Those that are already justified indeed lay their lives before the Lord to be judged, as Paul states, “the Lord judges me”.

In this sense you are correct with your post, that indeed if we do God’s will to call out for faith and in faith believe on the Lord, He is just and faithful to forgive and regenerate, even justify us before the Father.

 

[mcq72]

You should have read a little bit further.(beyond 3:16)

I did…

John 3:15-18 show faith justification. The next three verses show fruits, works when justified, when one is already “in the light”… it is not works to get in the light.

Neh. It is clear that those who are already doing good, come to the light. You have again, twisted the Scripture to suit your beliefs.

oh yeah, it is clear the context is coming to the light not for justification (you don’t do “truth” without being already justified) , but to have our works judged as being of God, and some translations have thru God.

Conversely, the unjustified do not come to the light because they don’t want to have their deeds judged by God (they don’t even know they are unjustifed already, not believing).

We all agree the just shall have good deeds and our evil deeds cleansed thru regeneration, giving a clear conscience. The unjustifed will not have that clear cosncience, not being regenerated. Our good deeds do not regenerate us.

 

[De_Maria]

And what is truth? …

You will basically twist and turn the Word of God into a pretzel to embrace your false doctrines. We’re talking about coming to Christ and being justified. The Scripture is clear and you can’t get out from under it’s weight.

But he that doeth truth cometh to the light,

Doers of the Law are justified.

Faith alone is dead.

Keep on twisting to your own destruction. The Word of God is clear.

We dont come to be justified. We come to show forth our works before the light…big difference.

It doesn’t matter what you intend. It is God’s will that those who do the Law will be justified. You don’t tell God that you are justified. God tells you if you are justified.

oh yeah,

Yeah.

it is clear the context is coming to the light not for justification (you don’t do “truth” without being already justified)

Says who? You?

but to have our works judged as being of God, and some translations have thru God.

And you don’t think that God can work through the ungodly? Did God not work through the pagans and gentiles in the Old Tesament? Has God changed?

Conversely, the unjustified do not come to the light because they don’t want to have their deeds judged by God (they don’t even know they are unjustifed already, not believing).

The unjustified who have received the gift of faith, want to be justified. And therefore, will do what is pleasing in God’s eyes.

We all agree the just shall have good deeds and our evil deeds cleansed thru regeneration, giving a clear conscience. The unjustifed will not have that clear cosncience, not being regenerated.

Scripture says that God justifies those who do good.

Our good deeds do not regenerate us.

But God only regenerates those who do good.

 

[Dougbro1]

And what is truth?

Where have I heard that before…

 

[De_Maria]

mcq72:

And what is truth?

Where have I heard that before…

Same thought crossed my mind.

 

[mcq72]

Where have I heard that before…

A cross between Pilate and Cruise.

 

[mcq72]

Says who? You? (that you don’t do “truth” without being already justified)

Augustine and Calvin, to begin with.

And you don’t think that God can work through the ungodly? Did God not work through the pagans and gentiles in the Old Tesament? Has God changed?

well he worked (spoke) thru a donkey, but not sure a donkey is ungodly. “Working thru” does not mean you have been regenerated, justified. Now if you mean working thru even with non Jews, or folks outside the covenants , it is like today, that indeed some can be saved if they have never heard the gospel/covenants by their conscience in accordance to the revelation of God they have been given.

Scripture says that God justifies those who do good.

Absolutely. God enables us to call out to His name in faith. This is good