'Sola Caritas' Trumps 'Sola fide'

[Michael16]

Mcq, you’re being confusing. Please answer me.

 

[mcq72]

Ironically, they don’t see that that is a proclamation of salvation by something they did.

“Faith alone” does negate faith being a work, a work of God, and our work in professing such faith.

 

[Michael16]

Well, TULIPed; here’s my answer to you.

I’ve seen a lot of, nominally at best; Protestants that seem to believe that “ God knows I believe in him; I’m saved and it doesn’t matter what I do as long as I’m a good person. “ type of thinking. That’s the chief practical reason against faith alone soteriology.

As for your question about devout Protestants:

I’ve seen good and faithful people in those communities that love God and try to live by the Word as they understand it.

But, when you look at it; the practical effects is that by doing good works, however erroneous their soteriology; they end up contributing to their salvation anyway.

The main theological danger I see in faith alone soteriology is: If one stops at faith, doesn’t do good works; and sins anyway despite their faith in God; I believe they’re hell bound.

 

[TULIPed]

I’ve seen a lot of, nominally at best; Protestants that seem to believe that “ God knows I believe in him; I’m saved and it doesn’t matter what I do as long as I’m a good person. “

Fair enough - using “faith alone” as a license to sin.

I’ve seen good and faithful people in those communities that love God and try to live by the Word as they understand it.

What do you think makes the difference between these 2 types of “faith alone” Protestants? Both believe the same thing, and yet they behave differently? What drives the behavior?

 

[mcq72]

Have you talked with any devout practicing Catholics? Not one that I know of profess any self righteousness, obligation to do good works or feeling like they have to prove their justification.

Correct, why i was speaking about an extreme, not the norm.

Yet, not sure what is worse, trying to prove your justification of faith by works, or saying flat out you need good works besides faith to be saved.

 

[Michael16]

My thinking is that the devout group act on their faith and actually practice that faith. In that way; they practice faith and works while believing in faith alone.

 

[Michael16]

Did you read the rest of my post?

 

[mcq72]

fact: I feel great joy that by doing good works; I participate in and contribute to my salvation.

Well we call that being sanctified, even working,fighting for (against the flesh) future glorification, not salvation, which is by Christ alone.

Otherwise sounds a bit semi Pelagian, as we have discussed before.

 

[Michael16]

No. Pelagianism was the belief that man didn’t need grace in order to do good works. How does faith and works supposedly sound semi Pelagian?

 

[Michael16]

That’s not sanctification, mcq. It’s salvation.

 

[TULIPed]

Yes, but why doesn’t the non-devout group act on their faith? Why don’t non-devout Catholics act on their faith?

Taken a step further - there are plenty of non-Christians who lead better lives than either devout or non-devout Christians of any stripe. I have friends who are non-Believers who don’t drink, smoke, or swear, they give sacrificially to charity, they live and love and laugh purely - they are really, really good folk.

What’s the difference between them and a Believer?

 

[Michael16]

I believe that you’re asking a leading question, TULIPed. But, I’ll answer you.

As for why the non devout do not act on their faith; that’s a multifaceted question with many factors in why the non devout don’t act on that faith.

I think the common denominator of an answer is that such folk have a lukewarm love of and faith in God and put Him in a box that doesn’t challenge their worldliness.

Instead of serving God, and thus saving their souls; they try to make God serve them and thus endanger their souls.

 

[Michael16]

The other problem of the difference between believers and non believers:

I don’t don’t doubt the goodness of such people. Gandhi comes to mind.

Now, I believe that faith in Jesus is the difference. But, it’s only a starting point in salvation as works are required. Otherwise, why would Jesus condemn or save us based on our deeds and not just our faith?

To me; this definitively shows me that faith and works are tandem, both required and mutually supporting; in the economy of salvation.

As I asked mcq72 to show me where Jesus, in His own words; taught faith alone. He couldn’t; because he can’t.

 

[TULIPed]

To me; this definitively shows me that faith and works are tandem, both required and mutually supporting; in the economy of salvation

I get it. So we agree that faith in Christ is the difference between good - really good even - non-Believers and Believers. So the question remains - why would a “faith alone” Believer do good works?

Why would they attend church every Sunday? (Why is there anyone in a pew at all in a Reformed church on Sundays - especially during football season?) Why would they tithe - actually give 10% of gross income to the church? Why would some even give their lives for Christ? What would motivate them to do such a thing if they thought that they could do whatever they wanted - “sin so that grace abounds”?

For some reason, there are Protestants who, despite their misguided, wrong, heretical “faith alone” beliefs, still go about their lives much like devout Catholics. Why wouldn’t they take advantage of their license to sin?

 

[De_Maria]

De_Maria:

Who does that? Name one Catholic that you’ve encountered who enumerates their works to you and claims salvation based upon those works.

No one…u misunderstood…i said faith and works…for sure some here proclaim their works as salvific along with faith…

Nope. We say that God judges whether our works are salvific. In desperation, Protestants twist that to claim that we say that we are saved by works alone.

“Faith alone” does negate faith being a work, a work of God, and our work in professing such faith.

In desperation, you make indecipherable claims to sound as though you are saying something. But your statement has no meaning.

1. faith alone negates that faith is a work
2. faith alone negates that faith is a work of God.
3. faith alone negates that faith is our work in professing such work.

Thus, faith alone negates everything you claim and everything we claim and means absolutely nothing. Congratulations in again proving that faith alone is dead.

 

[De_Maria]

Have you met any “faith alone” folks though who live lives befitting a follower of Christ?

Many. But I’m not their judge.

People who quietly go about their lives loving Christ and their fellow men and women sacrificially? If so, why do you think they do it?

My answer flies in the face of Protestant doctrine.

1. I’ve met many people, not just Christians, who go about doing good. One of the most generous people I’ve ever met, was a professing atheist. He was honest, generous and kind hearted.
2. I’ve met many Catholics and Protestants who were meaner than rattlesnakes. They continue to live lives which bear no resemblance to the preaching of Jesus Christ.
3. And yes, I’ve met Christians of all kinds, Catholic, Mormon, JW, Lutheran, etc. who were kindhearted and do good for their fellow man.

Have you never met unbelievers who are nice and kind and loving to their fellow man?
Have you never met professing Christians who are not?

So, my answer to your question is this, people who do good for their neighbor are responding to the grace of God which is in their hearts. He put His law in all of us.

So what’s the difference between the Protestant that does good and the Catholic who does good?

The Protestant is under the law of works.
The Catholic is under the law of grace.

Surprised? Probably. You don’t believe that grace is dispensed in the Sacraments. And the Protestants reject the Sacraments. And even if some believe, they have no priests to administer them. Therefore, their justification will await the end of their life, at the Judgment, along with the unbelievers and other non-Christians.

 

[Michael16]

To answer you:

I don’t know why a faith alone Christian does do good works. Never been one at heart.

For me, faith isn’t the end all, everything about the Faith. You can’t boil down everything about the Gospel into faith. It boils down to love.

The Two Great Commandments that Our Lord summarizes the Law and the Prophets into.

Faith is more than the dry assent of the will to a set of beliefs. It has to be a living, breathing “ I will do anything, including dying; for Christ “ because I love Him so much.

Can’t do all this just from a belief standpoint. At some point, faith steps back into the background and love takes over.

 

[Michael16]

Mcq, I’m annoyed with you. But, I love you anyway.

The Protestant justification/sanctification thing was a hairsplitting creation of Protestant theologians who attempted explain the necessity of works while preserving the faith alone/faith not alone doctrine.

You forget Saint James 2:25: A man is JUSTIFIED by his works.

I all capped for emphasis. I hope you understand.

Btw: Which denomination are you?

 

[De_Maria]

Michael16:

I’ve seen a lot of, nominally at best; Protestants that seem to believe that “ God knows I believe in him; I’m saved and it doesn’t matter what I do as long as I’m a good person. “

Fair enough - using “faith alone” as a license to sin.

I’ve seen good and faithful people in those communities that love God and try to live by the Word as they understand it.

What do you think makes the difference between these 2 types of “faith alone” Protestants? Both believe the same thing, and yet they behave differently? What drives the behavior?

The grace of God. I have no other explanation. When I fell away from the Catholic faith, many of my contemporaries remained and never left. Why? We had the same upbringing. The same catechism.

I don’t know why some Protestants are arrogant and anti-Catholic. I don’t know why you aren’t. I suppose it is because some of them respond more completely to God’s grace than others.

What is your theory?

Edit: Here’s the thing though. It doesn’t matter.

Let me ask you, “Do you want to be saved ‘now’, in this life? Or do you want to be saved at the Judgment Seat of Christ after you die?”

That’s the choice you have. If you remain a Protestant, you will be judged with the rest of the world.

If you come into the Catholic Church, you will be judged with the Household of God.

1 Peter 4:17For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

 

[ltwin]

So, you don’t believe that a man can be an ambassador of Christ who beseeches us in place of God and prays for us in Christ’s stead? (2 Cor 5:20)

Sure. But that doesn’t mean I have to confess all my sins to this man to be forgiven.

Was there an answer to this question? I didn’t see it.

What do you see as the Catholic concept of penance and why do you reject it?

Yeah, I had to go back and add it. This is what I wrote.

You are born again in baptism. You later commit mortal sin and fall out of the state of grace. In penance, works of satisfaction are done leading to a new flow of sanctifying grace. So in essence, Catholics save themselves through something like a covenant of works with the help of the grace that flows from Christ through the church’s sacramental system.

But no dying with Christ and being regenerated. In your opinion, God does nothing through the water of Baptism?

Not apart from personal faith. God works through the promise proclaimed in baptism, and the Word proclaimed confirms and strengthens us in our faith and stirs up those who have already been baptized to improve our baptism.

Who said that Confirmation was required for salvation?

Would it be a sin for a baptized Catholic to neglect confirmation?

And, basically, if you personally, don’t agree with it, it isn’t true. Is there any truth which is not generated by you?

That isn’t what I’m saying at all. I simply am not obligated to conform to any teaching or ceremony that is not found in Scripture.

Who said they were required for salvation?

Then why make sacraments out of them? Baptism and the Lord’s Supper are signs of our new life in Christ and participation in his body and blood. They apply to all Christians. Marriage and ordination are states of life that do not apply to all Christians.

Then why did the Apostle Teach it? Christ told them to Teach all that He commanded. But you think they went around teaching things that Christ did not command?

It still isn’t instituted by Christ. Christ specifically established baptism and the Eucharist and commanded they be done. Anointing of the sick is a blessing and I thank God for it, but it is not a sacrament established for the church by our Lord.

Anointing, i.e. Chrism, is not a sign of our covenant relationship? Yet you said, above that it is a sign. So, a sign of what if not our covenant relationship?

It’s a sign of the Holy Spirit and his healing power.