'Sola Caritas' Trumps 'Sola fide'

[De_Maria]

cont’d

no, you did not address my matter . You did not address what it takes to be written in the book of life, other than good works , which I agree one will have if he is in there. You did not address the different judgement seats. You said those who commit sins will go to hell. Well all have sinned. You did not address the purpose of the saints judgement of works at the seat of Christ.

Nor have you mentioned any of those things. You are mentioning them now in order to obfuscate the subject of this discussion. In this discussion, you started out by denying that those who do good will be justified. I have proved that you are wrong and you are writhing trying to find something to throw out that will help you. But nothing helps you. Let me enumerate that which you just threw out to change the subject.

1. You did not address what it takes to be written in the book of life, other than good works , which I agree one will have if he is in there.

The book of life is the book of the justified. And you have just admitted that it takes good works to be written, therein. So, this merely proves you wrong.

You did not address the different judgement seats.

In all the judgment seats, the only thing judged, is works. So, again, this just proves you wrong.

You said those who commit sins will go to hell.

Sins are evil works. So, this proves that those who do evil works are judged by their works.

Well all have sinned.

But those who are judged righteous have repented from their sins and amended their ways. So, this doesn’t help your argument.

You did not address the purpose of the saints judgement of works at the seat of Christ.

Because it is still a judgment of works we have done, whether good or bad.

None of this helps you. You want to pretend that it does in order pretend that you have a reasonable argument. But you just dig a deeper and deeper hole.

amen…we call it glorification,

The Catholic Church calls it glorification. You adopted the Catholic Teaching.

at the judgement seat of Christ, the final step in our salvation journey, when all wood hay and stubble be removed,

In Purgatory.

only any gold remaining, and we will be most like Him.

This still proves Catholic Teaching and does nothing for your argument.

 

[De_Maria]

We have gone over this. You can not deny that for many this will be the case, just as i can not deny the potential for one to be erased from the book of life.

Again, you’re trying to change the subject. You have denied that there is further justification and that anyone can increase in righteousness. The fact that one can be erased from the book of life proves that one’s stance in righteousness can be reduced. It isn’t static. And if one can move down, one can also move up. Otherwise, there is no forgiveness.

if you mean a man can increase in faith, and even in works for the Lord, and mature etc…absolutely…like David started killing foxes and wolves, and then a bear and lion, and then Goliath, and then ten thousands enemies etc etc .

What do you think righteousness means? The faithful seek to be righteous in the eyes of God. When they increase in faithfulness, they likewise increase in righteousness.

But i certainly will not say that at every step God continually emboldened his name in the book of life.

Since when does it matter what you say? Have you not heard that we await God’s judgment?

1 Corinthians 4:4 … he that judgeth me is the Lord.

And why do you think it is too small a thing for God to embolden a name for every good work? Do you not know that we are judged on every word that we utter or that God has counted every hair on our head at every moment of our lives? Do you think God only judges now and then? Do you not realize what it means when we say that God is omniscient?

I will say his acts were recorded in the book of works , and they shall be made manifest to us and David, and he will for sure be glorified accordingly at the judgement seat of Christ. I will not say such works got him into heaven. I will not say they entered his name into the book of life, for like Abraham, he had faith early on, before any work, being graced with a heart after God. That is what entered their names in the book of life, faith.

You can say whatever you want. But Scripture says

James 2:21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

I will not say that his name was removed when he sinned, even what you call mortally, and then put back in after repentance, denying the foreknowledge of God and His Shepherding.

You can say what you want. But Scripture says:

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

And yes i agree that sin can lead to the unforgivable sin. There also can be a progression, like when Peter denied the Lord three times. Each time he was more vehement in his denial…it got easier to sin.

And if there is a progression in sinfulness, there is also a progression in righteousness.

That is all.

 

[mcq72]

Finally, I know also that the ungodly are not justified unless they first repent of their sins.

Yes, first and by faith.

 

[De_Maria]

De_Maria:

Finally, I know also that the ungodly are not justified unless they first repent of their sins.

Yes, first and by faith.

Yes, by faith, they repent and do the works which God prepared from the beginning. Only those who do so, will be saved.

 

[mcq72]

And if there is a progression in sinfulness, there is also a progression in righteousness.

Well, yes, faith is always righteous for the Christian, from start to finish. Believing God is always righteous. Without it we can not please God .

 

[mcq72]

The book of life is the book of the justified. And you have just admitted that it takes good works to be written, therein. So, this merely proves you wrong.

No i agreed one who is written in book of life will have good works to show, but that is not what got them in the book. Faith, initial justification, being born of God, writes you in the book. And some will only have faith and zero works, like the thief on the cross. But yes, most will have some works if they live long enough.

There is a reason why one book is life , and the others(s) is works.

 

[De_Maria]

De_Maria:

And if there is a progression in sinfulness, there is also a progression in righteousness.

Well, yes, faith is always righteous for the Christian, from start to finish. Believing God is always righteous. Without it we can not please God .

But there is a faith which is immature. People must grow in faith.

2 Peter 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; 6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; 7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

No i agreed one who is written in book of life will have good works to show, but that is not what got them in the book.

Without righteous works, they would not have been written in. You are simply contradicting the clear Teaching of Scripture. Rom 2:13 doers of the law are justified.

Faith, initial justification,

By using the term “initial” justification, you are admitting that justification is a process and that there is growth in righteousness.

being born of God, writes you in the book.

Scripture says that one is born again of water and Spirit. Not by proclaiming faith alone.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born? 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Thus., you are again contradicting the plain spoken Word of God.

cont’d

 

[De_Maria]

cont’d

And some will only have faith and zero works, like the thief on the cross. But yes, most will have some works if they live long enough.

Which thief? St. Dismas? You have no idea what you are talking about. Do you think that works is restricted to digging a hole or sweeping the floor?

St. Dismas suffered in the flesh and thus expiated his sins.

Scripture says:
1 Peter 4:1
Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;

And St. Dismas suffered with Christ.

Romans 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Note that St. Dismas died in union with Christ. Compare him to the other thief who died in disunion with Christ.

St. Dismas confessed his faith before men. Scripture says:

Matthew 10:32
Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

Note that St. Dismas also confessed Jesus before men (Luke 23:39-41).

Note also, that St. Dismas did a work of gold (1 Cor 3:10-15). His confession is memorialized in Scripture for eternity and has converted many men to the Faith of our Lord, Jesus Christ (James 5:19-20).

There is a reason why one book is life , and the others(s) is works.

Everyone is judged by their works. Those in the book of life also.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

You continue to contradict Scripture by reading into it your errors and presuppositions.

Catholic Teaching is the Wisdom of God. Catholic Teaching is the basis of the New Testament. God speaks through His Catholic Church. That is why the Catholic Church is infallible.

 

[De_Maria]

Well, some might say you deny the power of the Gospel, of His word, of His goodness and propitiating blood…of hearing that, and then hearing that in faith. That is where the action is at.

The action is the response to faith. Faith alone, is dead.

That is why we don’t baptize non believers.

Lol! We don’t baptize non-believers because they don’t want to be baptized. How many non-believers do you know who are asking to be baptized?

Believing is the miracle. And you say that all happens in the old man, in an unregenerate, dead in sin spirit, and remaining so till baptism ?

It is Christ who says it and you don’t have the faith to believe it. You must add your convolutions to Christ’s plain spoken word.

John 3:3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born? 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Indeed some may be born again at baptism, but some before , as noted in scripture.

Where?

I would also say many are not born again at baptism,
If they have faith, they are born again.
just as many are not with an altar call, or saying a sinners prayer.

Scripture says nothing about anyone being born again by an altar call or a sinner’s prayer.

To limit the internal working of the Holy Spirit to the sacrament does injustice to His power in the Word.

We go by the Word of God. You are adding to the Word of God, your man-made traditions.

I believe Luther called it institutionalizing the power of God. The Jews had same problem. Many did all the Godly commands of OT, per their teachings/institution. yet many were blind as bats, such as Nicodemus. Can you imagine that , a priest, a leader of God’s people being blind. He was not born again by their “sacraments”. he believed in God but His spirit was dead in trespasses and sins. They thought they were righteous based on their inherited religion. And what, we are above such pitfalls ?

You twist and twist the Word of God. Where does Scripture say that new birth was ever possible in the Old Testament? Please provide the verse.

All of the above should make one question whether the water of “be born of water and spirit” is correctly interpreted as water baptism. I mean when the Lord spoke it it was pre calvary, still with OT understanding, and water baptism was not known for regeneration. ( for sanctification, cleansing, yes)

Yeah, it is correctly interpreted as water Baptism. Only those who want to impose their personal bias upon Scripture will deny this.

Jesus Christ commanded it. You reject it. That is plain for all to see.

 

[mcq72]

Yeah, it is correctly interpreted as water Baptism. Only those who want to impose their personal bias upon Scripture will deny this.

Maybe. Maybe not. The church is divided on this. Whoever is wong has bias, a private interpretation.

Jesus Christ commanded it. You reject it. That is plain for all to see.

Yes. Jesus commanded it.

No one rejects it.

It is plain to see that not all are regenerated by infant baptism. It is plain to see people, adults, are already regenerated before baptism, professing faith in the blood of Christ, and His Lordship and His salvation. It is plain to see they are already operating under the new law of faith, happily and ready to obey His precepts of promise and holiness. It is plain to see they are already operating as a new man, all things becoming new. Again, it is plain to see they have been born again , regenerated by the Holy Ghost, before entering the waters of baptism.

 

[mcq72]

You twist and twist the Word of God. Where does Scripture say that new birth was ever possible in the Old Testament? Please provide the verse

I have provided before. Do you really think saints born in OT like Mary and Joseph and Simeon and Anna the prophetess at the temple and John the baptist, and David and Moses and Abraham were spiritually dead…really ? Do you think there was no sin covering foreshadowing the ultimate sin cleansing of Calvary , before Calvary? Do you think Enoch and Elijah were taken up to heaven were spiritially dead, in trespasses and sins, not born of God, not children of God ( and God is a spirit), not born of the Spirit ? Did they not all look forward to Calvary, the Messiah, as we look backwards to Him, for healing, spiritual healing?

 

[De_Maria]

I have provided before.

No, you didn’t.

Do you really think saints born in OT like Mary and Joseph and Simeon and Anna the prophetess at the temple and John the baptist,

Of those, Mary was the only one who was united with the Holy Spirit from her conception. She was never spiritually dead and never had to be reborn.

Of the rest, they all had to be reborn of the Holy Spirit before they could enter heaven.

and David and Moses and Abraham were spiritually dead…really ?

Yes, that is why these last three did not make it into heaven until Jesus Christ died upon the Cross and led them into heaven.

Do you think there was no sin covering foreshadowing the ultimate sin cleansing of Calvary , before Calvary?

That is correct. There was a foreshadowing, but not the actual cleansing of Calvary. Scripture says:

Hebrews 10:4For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

Do you think Enoch and Elijah were taken up to heaven were spiritially dead, in trespasses and sins, not born of God, not children of God ( and God is a spirit), not born of the Spirit ?

That is correct. Enoch and Elijah were not admitted into the highest heaven. Have you not read in Scripture:

Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God…32 And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:…39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

Did they not all look forward to Calvary, the Messiah, as we look backwards to Him, for healing, spiritual healing?

Yes, they all looked forward to a time when they would be born again. But they were not born again in their earthly life. They were born again after Jesus Christ came and led them into the true Promised Land, in heaven.

So, you continue to contradict the Word of God with notions that you have made up. The Scriptures are clear. You contradict the Scriptures.

Maybe. Maybe not. The church is divided on this. Whoever is wong has bias, a private interpretation.

The Church is not divided. Protestants are divided.

Yes. Jesus commanded it.

Correct.

No one rejects it.

You do.

It is plain to see that not all are regenerated by infant baptism. It is plain to see people, adults, …

It’s a delusion brought about by Satan. Only God knows when regeneration has truly come about.

 

[mcq72]

The action is the response to faith. Faith alone, is dead.

Faith is an action…didnt somebody say a verb…faith is a work, upon also which all other, other works rest on.

 

[mcq72]

t’s a delusion brought about by Satan. Only God knows when regeneration has truly come about.

Really, that would be fine if not all the folks who unequivocally say it happens at water baptism, those who teach baptismal regeneration.

You do.( reject baptism)

I am glad i have done twice what i reject!?

 

[mcq72]

That is correct. Enoch and Elijah were not admitted into the highest heaven. Have you not read in Scripture:

We are not talking about our eternal destination, even after death, whether purgatory or heavens or hades (before Calvary). We are talking about having our spirits born of God, even reconciled, . We are talking about a spiritual relationship with God, whilst we are alive here on earth.

 

[De_Maria]

Really, that would be fine if not all the folks who unequivocally say it happens at water baptism, those who teach baptismal regeneration.

If they are Catholic, they know that only God judges the soul. Yes, it happens unequivocally at Baptism, if the person who is baptized has faith in God. Otherwise, unequivocally, it doesn’t happen. God reads the soul. Do you think that a man can fool God?

You do.( reject baptism)

I am glad i have done twice what i reject!?

You can pour as much water on yourself as you want. You can do it a thousand times. If you don’t believe that Baptism now saves, you reject Baptism. To be more precise, you reject the Teaching of the Gospel which says that one is born again by water and the Holy Spirit.

Faith is an action…didnt somebody say a verb…faith is a work, upon also which all other, other works rest on.

And action which is dead if it is not accompanied by other actions.

We are notvtalking about our eternal destination,

I know.

even after death, whether purgatory or heavens or hades (before Calvary).

Agreed.

We are talking about having our spirits born of God, even reconciled, .

Born of God and reconciled are two different things. One must first be reconciled with God before God will grant that soul, new birth.

We are talking about a spiritual relationship with God, whilst we are alive here on earth.

We are talking about new birth. We all have a spiritual relationship with God. Even atheists were created in God’s image. God is their Father also. We all have a relationship with God, whether we know it or not. Whether we want it or not.

But the most special relationship is that of being born again in the image of Jesus Christ. Thus becoming a son in the Son of God.

 

[mcq72]

One must first be reconciled with God before God will grant that soul, new birth.

Is the soul rebirthed? I thought it was our spirit?..

If they are Catholic, they know that only God judges the soul. Yes, it happens unequivocally at Baptism, if the person who is baptized has faith in God.

Well, to say regeneration only happens when one enters/ exits the waters is like saying the wind only begins when it hits the trees and rustles their leaves.

 

[mcq72]

We are talking about new birth. We all have a spiritual relationship with God. Even atheists were created in God’s image. God is their Father also. We all have a relationship with God, whether we know it or not. Whether we want it or not.

So our spirits are not dead, with trespasses and sins…they are alive, even into God? If we all have a relationship with God why does He say to some, " I dont know you.", and only some can hear Him? Are you saying when the bible says a “child of God” it means all people ever born?

 

[mcq72]

And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

Well, certainly we have received more than they in OT, just as surely as all saints still have more to receive in the future. In light of our future glory and experience, I would not diminish the realities of our spiritual quickening, just as i would not dimish those of OT.

You have even been talking here of growing in justification, but are we any more born again down the road? Why do you deny those having received less of the promises in OT any spiritual quickening , new birth? Certainly they received some of the promises, just as we have received many more , with many more to come. Even OT saints in heaven are still awaiting the fulfillment of some of those promises.

Whether one be an infant (OT), to an adolescent (us), to an old mature saint, (us reigning in new heaven and earth) they are all born again in my opinion. ( born of God, not of the flesh).

They did not receive the promise so that we may be grafted in, and together we will all see His kingdom come fully down to earth, the Lord sitting on the throne of David, forever.

 

[RaisedCatholic]

It was a caricature of the absurd notion that the Gospel can be codified into various ‘solas’ when St. James says point blank that faith is never alone. Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Protestants who say they stand on the bible alone really don’t

That’s because what St. James means by “faith alone” & what Protestants mean by it are two different meanings. When Protestants use it, they are referring to the salvation process - that there is nothing a person can “do” to merit their salvation, including cooperating or participating with their salvation, which is by “faith alone.” When St. James uses the phrase “not by faith alone,” he is talking about if our faith is genuine it RESULTS in good works (James 2:18) and “not by faith alone” VOID of good works. This is where sola scriptura Protestants agree with St. James, that genuine saving faith is not void of good works, because they are the RESULT of genuine saving faith. If it doesn’t result in it, like St. James says, THAT kind of non-saving “faith without works is dead.” Good works is the RESULT of salvation, not the MEANS of it.