'Sola Caritas' Trumps 'Sola fide'

[Johan]

I ask you: What did Our Lord Himself teach? He never taught faith alone. A lot of His Teaching was works. I invite you to prove me otherwise please.

He taught that everyone who believes in Him will be saved. That is the essence of faith alone.

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. (John 3:16)

 

[Michael16]

No, it still doesn’t boil down to faith alone. One must still act on that faith for Jesus preached and taught works to follow.

Faith is the starting point upon which we do the rest of what Jesus taught.

 

[Johan]

That’s a description of the repentant sinner who approaches the fountain of grace in the Sacrament of Baptism, after he has turned to God and begun to obey His Word.

It rather sounds like a description of your penchant for eisegesis. We should note that the verse does not speak of repentance, baptism, or obedience. In other words, not much in common with the actual text in question.

Titus 3:5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,

Notice that to be saved, you have to do righteous deeds.

It says the very opposite - we are not saved because of any righteous deeds we have done. Paul does not even boast of having produced any righteous works.

Romans 2:13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin. (Rom. 3:20)

Through the doctrine of sola fide, you twist the Word of God to contradict itself.

James 2:24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

Or rather, “and not only by faith.” It is not a denial of the fact that Abraham was justified by faith alone when he believed the promise of God (Gen. 15:6).

What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” (Rom. 4:1–3)

Paul’s argument is based on the premise that Abraham was not justified by works before God.

That would be in Baptism. Where we present ourselves to God and express our faith in Jesus Christ. God seeing our faith, imputes it to us as righteousness and washes us in the grace of the Holy Spirit, which regenerates and renews us into new life.

Well, it is not the ritual per se that makes us walk in the newness of life, but the commitment of faith in Christ. A commitment manifested by the convert having him-/herself baptized.

Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. (1 Pet. 3:21)

Baptism does not remove the defilement of the flesh—it is the believer’s appeal to God for a good conscience by faith in his/her Savior.

 

[Michael16]

No. Saint James was clear about faith alone. The reformers twisted it.

 

[Johan]

No, it still doesn’t boil down to faith alone. One must still act on that faith for Jesus preached and taught works to follow.

Faith is the starting point upon which we do the rest of what Jesus taught.

It sounds to me that you do not believe that Christ has done everything needed to save us. So do you agree with Christ that all who believe in Him will be saved?

 

[Michael16]

Saint James was twisted by the reformers. Faith alone means faith by itself. As we can see in Saint James; Abraham was justified by his works and by his faith. Not by faith alone.

 

[Michael16]

Christ’s Death was an expiative Sacrifice. As a starting point for us.

 

[Johan]

No. Saint James was clear about faith alone. The reformers twisted it.

I am not a reformer, and I have no problems with James 2:24. It puts sola fide in perspective rather than rejects it. James does not deny that Abraham was justified at the moment he believed (Gen. 15:6). He adds that Abraham was also justified when he offered Isaac.

 

[Johan]

Christ’s Death was an expiative Sacrifice. As a starting point for us.

“Starting point”? So it was not efficacious for our salvation?

 

[Johan]

Saint James was twisted by the reformers. Faith alone means faith by itself. As we can see in Saint James; Abraham was justified by his works and by his faith. Not by faith alone.

Was Abraham not justified when he believed the promise (Gen. 15:6)? In other words, was he not justified long before the Aqedah (the Mount Moriah episode)?

 

[RaisedCatholic]

The error which Protestants add to that is to say that one is justified by faith alone. But Scripture is clear.

James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

When James says a man is “justified” by works, & not by “faith alone,” he is referring back to Genesis 22:3-5 when Abraham took Isaac to sacrifice him out of obedience to God, & the two men who went with them “saw” his “works” of obedience to God. James is simply saying Abraham was justified before the men who saw him BY his works (James 2:18), while Paul who cites this same passage states that Abraham was justified by his FAITH before God (Romans 4:3) but NOT by his works (v.2).

You’re speaking in circles.

Saving faith includes good works. Thus, one is saved by faith AND WORKS. Not by faith alone.

Actually, you are talking in circles, because I explained that James begins the passage by talking about a kind of “dead faith” that does not PRODUCE good works. This kind of “phony faith” that is void of good works does not save. He is speaking about “easy-believism,” or antinomialism, which is foreign to Protestantism that is “dead faith.” He is not talking about the salvation experience, but what RESULTS from it. If there are no good works, James is saying that “fake faith” is dead, but if there are good works it demonstrates TO OTHER PEOPLE that faith is alive. You have to take the entire passage of James 2 into context, not just an isolated verse or two out of context like “by works a man is justified, and not by faith only” or you misinterpret the whole passage.

Finish the verse.

James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

I did. See above.

Romans 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Heb 10:36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

Again, Paul is saying the same thing James is: a “doer” of the law demonstrates by their works - to other people - that their saving faith “alone” was genuine. If it doesn’t, it is dead & not genuine. Remember, people cannot see one’s genuine faith which is invisible like God can. They can only see it “by” their works. Same with what the writer of Hebrews is saying, “doers” will receive the promise, because their good works DEMONSTRATES to other people their faith is “alive” & not “dead”:

" But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will SHOW YOU my faith BY my works.” (James 2:18)

Verse 18 is the crux of the entire passage. Without it, the passage makes it sounds like James is promoting “faith plus works salvation,” which he is not.

 

[Michael16]

You have to complete the passage: A man is justified by his works.

So, Yes: Saint James is teaching faith and works. The reformers twisted the meaning to fit their theory; not their theory to fit the meaning.

You see: Abraham’s account in Genesis doesn’t state directly that his works didn’t also justify him.

With your sloppy exegesis of saving faith: You’re playing semantics unfortunately. Stop it please and let’s get on to the truth.

 

[Michael16]

Abraham was justified because he heard the promise and executed the promise. Faith and works.

 

[RaisedCatholic]

So, Yes: Saint James is teaching faith and works. The reformers twisted the meaning to fit their theory; not their theory to fit the meaning.

You see: Abraham’s account in Genesis doesn’t state directly that his works didn’t also justify him. You’re playing semantics unfortunately.

Obviously, we are going to disagree about this, and I could easily make the same accusation about you, but I will choose to refrain out of respect. But right before James says “a man is justified by works and not by faith alone,” he explains what was happening with Abraham in Genesis 22 when he went to sacrifice Isaac. Abraham, Isaac, & God were not the only ones there, which is crucial to the story. And to understand James’ meaning of “not by faith alone” & “faith without works is dead,” one must go back to the beginning of the passage, where the “dead faith” James is talking about doesn’t save him (James 2:14) is a phony faith that doesn’t RESULT in good works (v.18). This is why reading the entire passage, not just taking an isolated verse or two, like v.17 & 24 out of the context of the rest of the passage, is important in exegeting the text. Omitting v.14 & v.18 changes the entire context of the passage.

 

[Michael16]

I’m not playing semantics or isolating verses. You guys do plenty of that yourselves. I’m sorry you fell away from the true Faith. I truly am.

 

[Michael16]

When you look at the passage; faith must result in works. We can agree about that. Faith, after all; is only the start point as we must act on that faith. Faith and action are interrelated poles of an axis. You can’t divorce the two; no matter how you semantically slice it.

 

[RaisedCatholic]

I’m not playing semantics or isolating verses. You guys do plenty of that yourselves. I’m sorry you fell away from the true Faith. I truly am.

I am not playing semantics or isolating verses earlier, as I cited the entire passage of James, not two or three verses like you did. I am sorry you feel otherwise. Grace to you.

 

[Michael16]

You misinterpreted the entire passage. Try again.

 

[Johan]

Abraham was justified because he heard the promise and executed the promise. Faith and works.

“Executed” the promise? Huh? What does that mean?

 

[RaisedCatholic]

When you look at the passage; faith must result in works. We can agree about that. Faith, after all; is only the start point as we must act on that faith. Faith and action are interrelated poles of an axis. You can’t divorce the two

That’s exactly what I said. Where we disagree is that James is saying works is part of the process that leads to salvation. However, nowhere in the passage is James saying that. He is only talking about a kind of “dead faith” that does not result in salvation. Nothing more.

You misinterpreted the entire passage. Try again

Again, I could say the same about you, but I won’t because that is too subjective. Plus, Abraham was justified several chapters earlier in Genesis, long before his attempted sacrifice of Isaac, which didn’t actually save him. He was saved already!