'Sola Caritas' Trumps 'Sola fide'

[fhansen]

Which brings us back to earlier posts of loving as the central command, but asking is it a work unto salvation, or a work wrought out of salvation. I posted we must first believe on Him as commanded. Then His love is shed abroad in our heart abundantly to love others, even in works, keeping such commandments.

To love-God first of all, then neighbor-is both an obligation for man and a work of grace in man that begins with communion with God which is established by faith, itself a work of grace. Cooperation is necessary in this work, however, since grace can be rejected. And in this our salvation is worked out as we do cooperate and the righteousness or justice known as love increases in us.

In any case the obligation to love (“Thou shall love” could be said to summarize all of God’s commands to man), to the extent that it’s fulfilled, inherently causes the obedience that Adam couldn’t or wouldn’t quite muster in Eden and that the chosen people later couldn’t authentically and consistently muster while “under the law”. We’re here now to learn the value of love, so to speak, the inestimable value of God, to put it another way, so that we may run to and embrace it as that light becomes known to us.

 

[Michael16]

Mcq, you’re twisting Scripture.

The entire passage ends in only those who do my Father’s Will shall enter heaven.

When you do exegesis of Scripture, you have to consider the entire passage, the entire chapter and the entire context of the matter under discussion in the text. I don’t see you or the other Protestant apologists doing so.

More on that later.

DOING the Father’s Will. Works. You’re twisting Scripture to fit your theory. Kind of like a detective altering the crime scene to fit his theory.

Stop it and just admit that you’re wrong and that faith alone is dead. Faith AND works are required together in tandem for salvation. All those times you quote faith is required; really only proves my point that faith and works form an axis. Works without faith is dead and faith without works is dead. Both are needed together for salvation to work.

Next caller, caller are you there?

As for the born again thing: EVERY Baptized Christian is born again and receives the Holy Spirit in the Sacrament of Baptism. Every Baptized Catholic, and every Catholic is Baptized; already is born again.

Sola Fide is based on the misinterpretation of cherry picked individual verses collected together to form the erroneous system.

Which is proven false when you look at Scripture plainly and in context together.

Thanks to Sola Scriptura, which Protestants really don’t practice in truth; and it’s emphasis on each man interpreting for himself; anyone can form any heresy by collecting enough cherry picked verses together, misinterpreting them; and building a system from there.

And that’s exactly what happened with Sola Fide.

We Catholics can tear it apart any which way you like. But, in the end; many Protestants don’t seem to care and end up saying things like It’s Jesus that matters, my truth is my truth and your truth is your truth, and That’s your interpretation… Et cetera. Or my personal favorite: It’s because of the Catholic Church that we have so many denominations.

In breaking through Protestant defenses we do that: Protestants seemingly don’t care that we show their system is false and they remain in their errors despite their doctrines being proved to be unscriptural and without solid basis. Just because it works for them; and you’re not going to tell me different.

I wonder what Jesus will say about that at Judgment Day?

All I see you doing seems to be Scripture twisting to fit your theory. Not your theory fitting Scripture. Just admit it and be done with it, please.

 

[De_Maria]

Is the soul rebirthed? I thought it was our spirit?..

I don’t think you know the difference. You’re just complicating the discussion in order to dig a rabbit hole in which to hide.

1280 Baptism imprints on the soul an indelible spiritual sign, the character, which consecrates the baptized person for Christian worship. Because of the character Baptism cannot be repeated (cf. DS 1609 and DS 1624).

Well, to say regeneration only happens when one enters/ exits the waters is like saying the wind only begins when it hits the trees and rustles their leaves.

No one has said that. Your pride doesn’t let you admit that your arguments have been debunked.

We’re done.

 

[De_Maria]

So our spirits are not dead, with trespasses and sins…they are alive, even into God?]

How much do you not know?

Luke 20:38For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.

If we all have a relationship with God why does He say to some, " I dont know you.", and only some can hear Him? Are you saying when the bible says a “child of God” it means all people ever born?

As a manner of speaking. In a metaphorical way to say that they have displeased Him.

God knows us, every man, better than we know ourselves.

Protestant doctrines have truly confused you. You ought to line them all up and slap them.

Well, certainly we have received more than they in OT, just as surely as all saints still have more to receive in the future. In light of our future glory and experience, I would not diminish the realities of our spiritual quickening, just as i would not dimish those of OT.

I always suspected that Protestants theology has one foot in the OT. Let me explain something to you. No one was in heaven in the OT. Because their spirits weren’t quickened until Jesus Christ died upon the Cross.

You have even been talking here of growing in justification, but are we any more born again down the road?

Do children grow after they exit the womb?

Why do you deny those having received less of the promises in OT any spiritual quickening , new birth?

Because God revealed that new birth was a gift of the Holy Spirit granted to us through the merits of Jesus Christ.

Certainly they received some of the promises, just as we have received many more , with many more to come. Even OT saints in heaven are still awaiting the fulfillment of some of those promises.

Besides the point. We’re talking about regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit. Being born again.

Whether one be an infant (OT), to an adolescent (us), to an old mature saint, (us reigning in new heaven and earth) they are all born again in my opinion. ( born of God, not of the flesh).

Your opinion blatantly contradicts the Word of God.

 

[De_Maria]

That’s because what St. James means by “faith alone” & what Protestants mean by it are two different meanings.

No, it’s not and that is easily proven even by your claims, below.

When Protestants use it, they are referring to the salvation process - that there is nothing a person can “do” to merit their salvation, including cooperating or participating with their salvation, which is by “faith alone.”

And in so saying, they contradict the Word of God.

When St. James uses the phrase “not by faith alone,” he is talking about if our faith is genuine it RESULTS in good works (James 2:18) and “not by faith alone” VOID of good works.

That is what both Catholics and Protestants agree upon. St. James is a Catholic. The error which Protestants add to that is to say that one is justified by faith alone. But Scripture is clear.

James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

This is where sola scriptura Protestants agree with St. James,

They contradict St. James, blatantly.

that genuine saving faith is not void of good works, because they are the RESULT of genuine saving faith.

You’re speaking in circles.

Saving faith includes good works. Thus, one is saved by faith AND WORKS. Not by faith alone.

If it doesn’t result in it, like St. James says, THAT kind of non-saving “faith without works is dead.”

Finish the verse.

James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Good works is the RESULT of salvation, not the MEANS of it.

Good works are the result of faith. Claiming faith does not automatically save.

Romans 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Heb 10:36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

 

[mcq72]

Stop it and just admit that you’re wrong and that faith alone is dead.

No need to, for we never unadmitted it. James says it plainly. We just differ on what plain meaning is given the entirety of scripture as you say.

As for the born again thing: EVERY Baptized Christian is born again and receives the Holy Spirit in the Sacrament of Baptism.

Well I agree with De Maria that only God knows who indeed has such faith at baptism, and is born again. But yes, that is unequivocal doctrine of baptismal regeneration which many teach, but not all, and not always.

Faith AND works are required together in tandem for salvation.

They are usually in tandem but required is wrong word for works they being fruit of or evidence the first.

Sola Fide is based on the misinterpretation of cherry picked individual verses collected together to form the erroneous system.

Well, per our meaning I dont think so. But if it is viewed as erroneous by some, it is only to offset another error seemingly practiced at the time, of salvation by works, even institutional (religious) works, much like Israel had fallen into at Christ’s first coming.

anyone can form any heresy by collecting enough cherry picked verses together, misinterpreting them; and building a system from there.

That is so true, and we were told to beware, even for churches doing this.

All I see you doing seems to be Scripture twisting to fit your theory. Not your theory fitting Scripture. Just admit it and be done with it, please.

So said the reformers, both in OT and new, and we know what happened to many of them.

 

[Michael16]

Mcq, any reasonable reading of Saint James 2:24-25 says that men are justified by works. When combined with Saint Paul’s faith APART, not ALONE as Luther lied; leads to faith and works justification.

 

[Michael16]

As for your doctrine that only God knows who has saving faith; even your own reformers couldn’t define who’s saved or not. Makes their faith alone doctrine non sense.

Of course, as per your meaning; which is heretical; faith alone you justify with Scripture twisting and misinterpretation. Luther LIED when he translated Saint Paul to say faith alone.

As for works justification: You Keep parroting the old Protestant criticism that the Church somehow taught works alone. The Church never taught that because it’s always taught faith and works.

Get your head straight and think for yourself, man.

 

[Michael16]

Here’s the thing, mcq.

The more we debate, the stronger my faith gets. The more we debate the Word, the more I take back the word faith and Sacred Scripture back from the Protestants.

The more I grow stronger in my conviction of the truth of what the Church teaches and why she is right.

Let’s keep debating, mcq. I look forward to your reply as I see that I may have stumped you and, God willing; I’m causing you to think for yourself and lead you into the truth of Catholic teaching. In time, I believe I’ll break through your defenses and misunderstandings and leave you with an open mind and heart to the Holy Spirit.

God bless you and I love you, mcq.

 

[mcq72]

The Church never taught that because it’s always taught faith and works.

I said practiced. teaching is one thing doing is another ?

 

[Michael16]

And abuse in practice is justification for leaving the Church and altering doctrine?

 

[mcq72]

And abuse in practice is justification for leaving the Church and altering doctrine?

works for many.

Disagree he altered anything, only highlighted, or explained faith and works in what he deemed a more appropriate manner.

“Faith alone” does not do away with works of James, just as “bible alone” does not do away with magisterium, or the body of Christ, the church etc.

Every good work has faith as foundation, not sure vice versa is as true.

 

[Michael16]

No, faith alone contradicts Saint James and doesn’t work for anyone in reality. Please share to me what you’re confused about and I’ll help.

 

[Michael16]

No, mcq. Faith alone contradicts Saint James and doesn’t work for anyone in reality. In fact: The more devout the Protestant; the more that their works contribute to their salvation. Almost in spite of their faith alone doctrine.

With that in mind; might as well be honest and subscribe to the Church’s teaching on faith and works.

 

[De_Maria]

Michael16:

The Church never taught that because it’s always taught faith and works.

I said practiced. teaching is one thing doing is another ?

Why do Protestants insist on divorcing things that should be together. Here is what Jesus Christ says about those who teach and do not practice.

Matthew 23 :1 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2 “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4 They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them…
13 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.

“Faith alone” does not do away with works of James, just as “bible alone” does not do away with magisterium, or the body of Christ, the church etc.

On the contrary, in my opinion, Luther tried to rid the Bible of the Epistle of St. James precisely because it contradicts his false teachings.

And, Luther implemented the idea of the bible alone, in order to undermine the authority of the Church, which he wanted to escape.

 

[Johan]

No, faith alone contradicts Saint James and doesn’t work for anyone in reality.

On the contrary, sola fide is a recognition of the Scriptural teaching that God justifies the ungodly who do not work, but trust Him (Rom. 4:5). Through the doctrine of sola fide we reach for the righteousness that is not our own, but which comes from God through faith in Christ (Phil. 3:9).

 

[Michael16]

Ah, my brother. Alas, you deny what Our Lord taught: Only those who do the Father’s Will shall enter heaven.

 

[Michael16]

I ask you: What did Our Lord Himself teach? He never taught faith alone. A lot of His Teaching was works. I invite you to prove me otherwise please.

 

[Johan]

Ah, my brother. Alas, you deny what Our Lord taught: Only those who do the Father’s Will shall enter heaven.

Right, and what is the Father’s will?

For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. (John 6:40)

So it all boils down to faith in Christ.

 

[De_Maria]

On the contrary, sola fide is a recognition of the Scriptural teaching that God justifies the ungodly who do not work, but trust Him (Rom. 4:5).

That’s a description of the repentant sinner who approaches the fountain of grace in the Sacrament of Baptism, after he has turned to God and begun to obey His Word.

Titus 3:5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,

Notice that to be saved, you have to do righteous deeds.

Romans 2:13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

Through the doctrine of sola fide we reach for the righteousness that is not our own, but which comes from God through faith in Christ (Phil. 3:9).

Through the doctrine of sola fide, you twist the Word of God to contradict itself.

James 2:24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

we reach for the righteousness that is not our own, but which comes from God through faith in Christ (Phil. 3:9).

That would be in Baptism. Where we present ourselves to God and express our faith in Jesus Christ. God seeing our faith, imputes it to us as righteousness and washes us in the grace of the Holy Spirit, which regenerates and renews us into new life.

Romans 6:3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. 5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his.

Note the bolded part, only those who were baptized into Christ Jesus now walkin in the newness of life. Not those who claim faith alone.