'Sola Caritas' Trumps 'Sola fide'

[mcq72]

You forget Saint James 2:25: A man is JUSTIFIED by his works.

Yes, if it is built on faith first.

“For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath something of which to glory, but not before God”

Ok not before God then before men?

"Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works; show me thy faith "

“Ye see [not God sees, but ye see], then, that by works a man is justified”

Was Abraham Justified by Works? by Dr. J. Vernon McGee

 

[De_Maria]

Sure. But that doesn’t mean I have to confess all my sins to this man to be forgiven.

Because you are your own authority and refuse to submit to a man as instructed to do so by Scripture:

Hebrews 13: Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

Yeah, I had to go back and add it. This is what I wrote.

You are born again in baptism. You later commit mortal sin and fall out of the state of grace. In penance, works of satisfaction are done leading to a new flow of sanctifying grace. So in essence, Catholics save themselves through something like a covenant of works with the help of the grace that flows from Christ through the church’s sacramental system.

Save ourselves? Where does the “flow of sanctifying grace” come from?

Not apart from personal faith.

Why do you keep saying that? Did we say “apart from our personal faith”? Did we even insinuate it? No. Yet, you keep painting us with that brush.

God works through the promise proclaimed in baptism,

What is that promise?

and the Word proclaimed confirms and strengthens us in our faith and stirs up those who have already been baptized to improve our baptism.

So, for you, preaching is a Sacrament. The preachers voice conveys the grace of sanctification. But not by water and the Holy Spirit.

Would it be a sin for a baptized Catholic to neglect confirmation?

Let’s say that you go to your Mom’s house and it’s lunch time, food is prepared and you are hungry. Your Mom knows this. She offers you food and you refuse it.

Would she feel insulted?

That isn’t what I’m saying at all. I simply am not obligated to conform to any teaching or ceremony that is not found in Scripture.

Does Scripture say that?

Or rather, does Scripture say:

Matthew 8:17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.

See also Heb 13:17 already referenced above.

Then why make sacraments out of them?

Because Jesus said so.

Baptism and the Lord’s Supper are signs of our new life in Christ and participation in his body and blood. They apply to all Christians. Marriage and ordination are states of life that do not apply to all Christians.

Correct. So, you think that those of us who aren’t ministerial priests are condemned to hell?

It still isn’t instituted by Christ. Christ specifically established baptism and the Eucharist and commanded they be done. Anointing of the sick is a blessing and I thank God for it, but it is not a sacrament established for the church by our Lord.

Yeah, it is. If He hadn’t established it and commanded it, the Church wouldn’t Teach it.

It’s a sign of the Holy Spirit and his healing power.

And the Holy Spirit has nothing to do with the New Testament Covenant?

 

[mcq72]

The Protestant justification/sanctification thing was a hairsplitting creation of Protestant theologians who attempted explain the necessity of works while preserving the faith alone/faith not alone doctrine

Perhaps, works for me. I hope the CC doesn’t say justification, sanctification, and glorofication are synonomous, to say we can be more and more justified as we do works.

 

[Michael16]

The Church teaches it because it’s true, mcq. Not to justify worldly reasons.

I accept it because:

I read Sacred Scripture first and saw it in Church teaching second. Everything else lines up from there.

 

[De_Maria]

Perhaps, works for me. I hope the CC doesn’t say justification, sanctification, and glorofication are synonomous, to say we can be more and more justified as we do works.

Why do you believe that you can be more “sanctified” by your works but not more righteous?

 

[mcq72]

Why do you believe that you can be more “sanctified” by your works but not more righteous?

I suppose because our righteousness before God is based on His work. I mean you are either a child of God or not. Now love is something else…that can grow, as well as faith and works. Dont think God loves us more as His child if we work more.

 

[De_Maria]

I suppose because our righteousness before God is based on His work.

Which He accomplishes through us. Thus, Scripture says:

Romans 2:13 … but the doers of the law shall be justified.

And God remembers that these are our works:

Hebrews 6:10For God is not unrighteous to forget your work

So, Scripture says that God takes into account, our works. Where does it say that this is only for sanctification? Or that justification occurs only once? In fact, we will all stand before Christ at the Judgment, precisely to be justified or condemned. Where does it say that our justification righteous standing before God has neither risen, nor fallen, by then?

I mean you are either a child of God or not.

There are children of God who have lost their justification and their sanctification, completely. So, that doesn’t help your argument.

And there are people who are not children of God who are doing good works and thus, becoming just in God’s eyes.

Now love is something else…that can grow, as well as faith and works. Dont think God loves us more as His child if we work more.

God loves us whether we are His baptized children or not. God is love. And God is the Creator of all things thus, Father of all things.

Acts 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; 25 Neither is worshipped with men’s hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; 26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; 27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: 28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device.

So, that doesn’t help you either. Scripture doesn’t support your idea.

Where did you come up with the idea that justification is static? Where did you come up with the idea that men can’t grow in righteousness? Where did you come up with the idea that our standing before God can’t be changed by the works which we do?

 

[ltwin]

Save ourselves? Where does the “flow of sanctifying grace” come from?

Yes, I know you don’t see it that way, but you asked how I saw the Catholic concept of penance.

Why do you keep saying that? Did we say “apart from our personal faith”? Did we even insinuate it? No. Yet, you keep painting us with that brush.

The Catholic Church practices infant baptism–which it believes affects automatic regeneration and the removal of original sin–on the basis of parental faith and the faith of the Church. So, yeah you do say apart from personal faith.

What is that promise?

That those who believe in him will be washed clean and rise to new life in him.

So, for you, preaching is a Sacrament. The preachers voice conveys the grace of sanctification.

Preaching is not a sacrament, since it is no outward sign of inward grace. But it is a means of grace for it is by hearing the Word that faith comes. I"m not sure why you focus on the “preachers voice”. It is the Spirit and the Word. The Spirit can give faith by reading the Word alone in a hotel room just as well as by listening to a preacher’s sermon.

I’m not sure how you can have a baptism service without proclamation of the Gospel. The two are pretty inseparable. The sacraments are the gospel made visible.

But not by water and the Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 5:26 says we are sanctified “by the washing of water with the word”. It is the Holy Spirit and the Word that sanctifies us.

Let’s say that you go to your Mom’s house and it’s lunch time, food is prepared and you are hungry. Your Mom knows this. She offers you food and you refuse it.

Would she feel insulted?

Is this healthy food or just processed food that won’t actually fill you up?

So, you think that those of us who aren’t ministerial priests are condemned to hell?

Why would you think I think that?

And the Holy Spirit has nothing to do with the New Testament Covenant?

He does, but that doesn’t mean anointing someone with oil and praying for them when they request it is a sacrament. Christians request prayer and invoke the Holy Spirit all the time, but that isn’t a sacrament.

 

[Michael16]

We are all equally loved by God. Look at the saints in the 2,000 years of Church history.

The prayers of the righteous man avails much as Scripture says.

We see that in Moses, we see that in Our Lady and all the other saints is that their righteousness is great and their prayers and intercessions are sought because we know that God will listen to the more righteous among us like the saints.

Because of this great level of righteousness; God listens to their prayers with a greater ear than a less righteous person.

Now, from what I see in your last post; I’m getting the impression that you really don’t care about the truth of what Scripture says and you’re content with the understanding of the Word you have.

If this is the case: Then why argue with us at all?

Am I understanding you right?

 

[De_Maria]

Yes, I know you don’t see it that way, but you asked how I saw the Catholic concept of penance.

The Catholic Church practices infant baptism–which it believes affects automatic regeneration and the removal of original sin–on the basis of parental faith and the faith of the Church. So, yeah you do say apart from personal faith.

I find that very comforting. In the case of our children, it is a pure gift. This is how it has ever been. Only the Protestants are so cold as to find this offensive.

Deuteronomy 29:29 The secret things belong unto the Lord our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.

Notice how this reverses the curse of Adam, whose righteousness was lost for all his progeny based upon his personal lack of faith.

That those who believe in him will be washed clean and rise to new life in him.

Did you not read that the promise is to us AND TO OUR CHILDREN?

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Preaching is not a sacrament, since it is no outward sign of inward grace. But it is a means of grace for it is by hearing the Word that faith comes.

Then hearing is your outward sign of inward grace.

I"m not sure why you focus on the “preachers voice”.

How else do you hear?

It is the Spirit and the Word.

Jesus said it is by water and Spirit. Do you deny this?

The Spirit can give faith by reading the Word alone in a hotel room just as well as by listening to a preacher’s sermon.

Sure. But Scripture says that it is in Baptism that one rises to new life. Not in a hotel room reading Scripture nor by listening to a preacher’s sermon.

cont’d

 

[De_Maria]

cont’d

I’m not sure how you can have a baptism service without proclamation of the Gospel. The two are pretty inseparable. The sacraments are the gospel made visible.

Who said that we have Baptisms without proclamation of the Gospel? Why are you so desperate to divorce Baptism from faith and from the Gospel? Or at least, why do you attribute that to Catholics?

Ephesians 5:26 says we are sanctified “by the washing of water with the word”. It is the Holy Spirit and the Word that sanctifies us.

Did you miss the word, “water”? Why are you afraid of God working through water?

Is this healthy food or just processed food that won’t actually fill you up?

Well, the point I was trying to make is that God has set the table and invited us to eat. If we refuse, Scripture says that God will be insulted. God has set Confirmation on the table at a certain time in our faith journey. We don’t dare refuse. But if you do, because you don’t find God’s fare palatable, that is your business.

Why would you think I think that?

Because you said that the Church teaches that one must have the Sacrament of Holy Orders in order to be saved.

He does, but that doesn’t mean anointing someone with oil and praying for them when they request it is a sacrament. Christians request prayer and invoke the Holy Spirit all the time, but that isn’t a sacrament.

The Church which Jesus Christ gave the power to “bind and loose” says it is. That is enough for me.

I guess we’ve gone round and round on this enough. Thanks for responding.

 

[ltwin]

Then hearing is your outward sign of inward grace.

No. Responding by faith to what I heard would be the outward sign, wouldn’t it? And what would that outward sign be? Baptism!

How else do you hear?

Yes, you hear the Word. It is the Word that sanctifies, not the messenger’s voice. Paul said in 1 Corinthians 2:3-5, “And I was with you in weakness and in fear and much trembling, and my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, so that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.”

Jesus said it is by water and Spirit. Do you deny this?

He also said, “Sanctify them by the truth; Your word is truth.” Do you deny this?

Who said that we have Baptisms without proclamation of the Gospel? Why are you so desperate to divorce Baptism from faith and from the Gospel? Or at least, why do you attribute that to Catholics?

I have been saying that baptism’s meaning and power comes from the fact that it is inseparable from the proclamation of the Gospel. Just as hearing the Gospel preached strengthens faith, so does seeing the Gospel visualized in baptism. You are the one who took that and said:

So, for you, preaching is a Sacrament. The preachers voice conveys the grace of sanctification. But not by water and the Holy Spirit.

Because you said that the Church teaches that one must have the Sacrament of Holy Orders in order to be saved.

No, I didn’t. My point was that if ordination and marriage are not outward signs of inward grace necessary for salvation then they should not be sacraments. The grace God gives to priests or ministers is not necessary for salvation. The grace God gives to a husband and wife is not necessary for salvation. Why are these sacraments?

 

[mcq72]

Romans 2:13 … but the doers of the law shall be justified

“Therefore, by the deeds [or works] of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight; for by the law is the knowledge of sin” Romans3:20

Hebrews 6:10For God is not unrighteous to forget your work

“But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousnes”

No one is saying He forgets works…they are written in the books, and will be reviewed at the judgement seat of Christ…not to be justified or condemned as if Saints are judged at great white throne judgement…if we are written in the book of life we enter His glory, which He shares with us, according to our works in Him…we are glorified.

There are children of God who have lost their justification and their sanctification, completely. So, that doesn’t help your argument.

Doesn’t help your argument either

 

[De_Maria]

No. Responding by faith to what I heard would be the outward sign, wouldn’t it? And what would that outward sign be? Baptism!

Nope. Repentance and turning to God.

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

In Baptism, the outward sign of the inward grace is the water, washing the skin. The water washing the skin signifies the action of the Spirit washing the soul.

Yes, you hear the Word. It is the Word that sanctifies, not the messenger’s voice. Paul said in 1 Corinthians 2:3-5, “And I was with you in weakness and in fear and much trembling, and my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, so that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.”

He is speaking of the healings which God accomplished through him. His healing power was so great, if people even touched his handkerchiefs, they would be healed.

He also said, “Sanctify them by the truth; Your word is truth.” Do you deny this?

That is Jesus’ prayer to God the Father. How is that pertinent to this discussion?

I have been saying that baptism’s meaning and power comes from the fact that it is inseparable from the proclamation of the Gospel.

Baptisms meaning and power come from God. The Gospel revealed that power but preaching is not it’s author.

Just as hearing the Gospel preached strengthens faith, so does seeing the Gospel visualized in baptism.

Lol! You truly empty the Gospel of it’s power. You don’t believe that God works through Baptism. You don’t believe that God can regenerate and renew us through Baptism. Part and parcel of the good news is that we are born again by water and Spirit.

You are the one who took that and said:

So, for you, preaching is a Sacrament. The preachers voice conveys the grace of sanctification. But not by water and the Holy Spirit.

That is a statement showing astonishment that you separate Baptism from the Gospel preached. You deny the power of Baptism which the Gospel reveals. The Gospel says we are born again by water and spirit but you say, “it is a mere sign which bolsters our faith”.

cont’d

 

[De_Maria]

cont’d

No, I didn’t. My point was that if ordination and marriage are not outward signs of inward grace necessary for salvation then they should not be sacraments.

They are outward signs of inward grace.

The grace God gives to priests or ministers is not necessary for salvation.

Who said they were?

The grace God gives to a husband and wife is not necessary for salvation.

Who said it was?

Why are these sacraments?

Because it is God’s will that a man and woman become one flesh and be united by His grace.

Matthew 19:5And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?

Ephesians 5:30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. 32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

CCC#1661 The sacrament of Matrimony signifies the union of Christ and the Church.

And, as for Holy Orders, because it is the sign of Christ’s presence in the world.

2 Corinthians 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.

1548 In the ecclesial service of the ordained minister, it is Christ himself who is present to his Church as Head of his Body, Shepherd of his flock, high priest of the redemptive sacrifice, Teacher of Truth. This is what the Church means by saying that the priest, by virtue of the sacrament of Holy Orders, acts in persona Christi Capitis :23

It is the same priest, Christ Jesus, whose sacred person his minister truly represents. Now the minister, by reason of the sacerdotal consecration which he has received, is truly made like to the high priest and possesses the authority to act in the power and place of the person of Christ himself (virtute ac persona ipsius Christi) .24

Christ is the source of all priesthood: the priest of the old law was a figure of Christ, and the priest of the new law acts in the person of Christ.25

 

[De_Maria]

De_Maria:

Romans 2:13 … but the doers of the law shall be justified

“Therefore, by the deeds [or works] of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight; for by the law is the knowledge of sin” Romans3:20

So, you’re pitting one verse against another and you say that Rom 3:20 wins. But Romans 3:20 fits perfectly in the Sacramental system.

As Scripture said earlier, in Acts, the Law of Moses justifies, but not perfectly.

Acts 13:39And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

But in the Sacraments, we are washed perfectly in the washing of regeneration. Not by the righteous works we have done.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

But only those who have done the works of the Law are justified and saved. Rom 2:13

“But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousnes”

This is spoken of Abraham. Did Abraham work? Yes, he did. By faith he left Ur when God called him out. And then, he wandered through many places, always in obedience to God’s call. And then, he offered his son upon the altar.

So, St. Paul means something other than that this man did not work at all.

No one is saying He forgets works…they are written in the books, and will be reviewed at the judgement seat of Christ…not to be justified or condemned as if Saints are judged at great white throne judgement…if we are written in the book of life we enter His glory, which He shares with us, according to our works in Him…we are glorified.

That is your twist on the matter. But Scripture is clear that God condemns those who do evil and glorifies those who do good.

Romans 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Those who do good will be rewarded with eternal life.

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

Those who commit sins, will be punished in hell.

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

Punishment for every one that commits evil.

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

Glory for every man that does good.

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Doesn’t help your argument either

Sure it does. We believe the Scripture that those who do good will continue in God’s grace. And we believe the Scripture which says that many will fall away because they will not persevere in well doing.

You deny these things and claim that one is justified once and that it is done. Whereas, Scripture is clear that a man can become more righteous or begin to sin and lose his righteousness.

 

[mcq72]

So, St. Paul means something other than that this man did not work at all.

why cant you say what is plainly written, his faith justified him, even as he was still “ungodly”

"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousnes”

Sure it does. We believe the Scripture that those who do good will continue in God’s grace. And we believe the Scripture which says that many will fall away because they will not persevere in well doing.

“On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’”

False works and falling away are problematic for any view, faith alone for justification with works to follow, or faith and works for justification.

That is your twist on the matter.

no, you did not address my matter . You did not address what it takes to be written in the book of life, other than good works , which I agree one will have if he is in there. You did not address the different judgement seats. You said those who commit sins will go to hell. Well all have sinned. You did not address the purpose of the saints judgement of works at the seat of Christ.

Glory for every man that does good.

amen…we call it glorification, at the judgement seat of Christ, the final step in our salvation journey, when all wood hay and stubble be removed, only any gold remaining, and we will be most like Him.

 

[mcq72]

You deny these things and claim that one is justified once and that it is done

We have gone over this. You can not deny that for many this will be the case, just as i can not deny the
potential for one to be erased from the book of life.

Whereas, Scripture is clear that a man can become more righteous or begin to sin and lose his righteousness.

if you mean a man can increase in faith, and even in works for the Lord, and mature etc…absolutely…like David started killing foxes and wolves, and then a bear and lion, and then Goliath, and then ten thousands enemies etc etc .

But i certainly will not say that at every step God continually emboldened his name in the book of life. I will say his acts were recorded in the book of works , and they shall be made manifest to us and David, and he will for sure be glorified accordingly at the judgement seat of Christ. I will not say such works got him into heaven. I will not say they entered his name into the book of life, for like Abraham, he had faith early on, before any work, being graced with a heart after God. That is what entered their names in the book of life, faith.

I will not say that his name was removed when he sinned, even what you call mortally, and then put back in after repentance, denying the foreknowledge of God and His Shepherding.

And yes i agree that sin can lead to the unforgivable sin. There also can be a progression, like when Peter denied the Lord three times. Each time he was more vehement in his denial…it got easier to sin.

 

[mcq72]

Lol! You truly empty the Gospel of it’s power. You don’t believe that God works through Baptism. You don’t believe that God can regenerate and renew us through Baptism. Part and parcel of the good news is that we are born again by water and Spirit.

Well, some might say you deny the power of the Gospel, of His word, of His goodness and propitiating blood…of hearing that, and then hearing that in faith. That is where the action is at. That is why we don’t baptize non believers. Believing is the miracle. And you say that all happens in the old man, in an unregenerate, dead in sin spirit, and remaining so till baptism ?

Indeed some may be born again at baptism, but some before , as noted in scripture. I would also say many are not born again at baptism, just as many are not with an altar call, or saying a sinners prayer.

To limit the internal working of the Holy Spirit to the sacrament does injustice to His power in the Word. I believe Luther called it institutionalizing the power of God. The Jews had same problem. Many did all the Godly commands of OT, per their teachings/institution. yet many were blind as bats, such as Nicodemus. Can you imagine that , a priest, a leader of God’s people being blind. He was not born again by their “sacraments”. he believed in God but His spirit was dead in trespasses and sins. They thought they were righteous based on their inherited religion. And what, we are above such pitfalls ?

All of the above should make one question whether the water of “be born of water and spirit” is correctly interpreted as water baptism. I mean when the Lord spoke it it was pre calvary, still with OT understanding, and water baptism was not known for regeneration. ( for sanctification, cleansing, yes)

 

[De_Maria]

De_Maria:

So, St. Paul means something other than that this man did not work at all.

why cant you say what is plainly written, his faith justified him, even as he was still “ungodly”

"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousnes”

I didn’t say anything than what was plainly written. He didn’t say that his faith ALONE justified him. And, knowing Scripture, I know that St. Paul means that those who do righteous works are justified by the mercy of God. See Titus 3:5

Furthermore, knowing that St. Paul says many things that are hard to understand, ( 2 Pet 3:15, and knowing that Scripture doesn’t contradict itself, I know that St. Paul doesn’t mean, as you interpret, that Abraham did not do any works before he was justified. Because it is evident that Abraham proved his faith by his works, as not only St. Paul shows in Heb 11 but also St. James in James 2.

Finally, I know also that the ungodly are not justified unless they first repent of their sins.

“On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’”

False works and falling away are problematic for any view, faith alone for justification with works to follow, or faith and works for justification.

I have no idea what you’re talking about. They are perfectly accounted for in the Catholic view. It is the Protestants who believe that one is once justified who have the problem.

cont’d