'Sola Caritas' Trumps 'Sola fide'

[De_Maria]

De_Maria:

Says who? You? (that you don’t do “truth” without being already justified)

Augustine and Calvin, to begin with.

Then they are mistaken. Because the Word of God doesn’t say that.

well he worked (spoke) thru a donkey, but not sure a donkey is ungodly.

He also worked through the Babylonians to punish the Jews.

Jeremiah 29:4Thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel, unto all that are carried away captives, whom I have caused to be carried away from Jerusalem unto Babylon;

“Working thru” does not mean you have been regenerated, justified.

Who said that it did? My entire point is that the unjustified can do good works and that God does work through the unjustified. Your whole point has been to deny mine. And you have been refuted. So, you’re trying to change the subject.

Now if you mean working thru even with non Jews, or folks outside the covenants , it is like today, that indeed some can be saved …

That is besides the point. You have been proven wrong in your claims that the unjustified can’t do good works and that God doesn’t work through the unjustified so you want to dig a rabbit hole rather than admit it.

Absolutely. God enables us to call out to His name in faith. This is good

You’re still trying to obfuscate. Repeat after me. "God justifies those who do good. "
Again, "God justifies those who do good. "
Again, "God justifies those who do good. "

No amount of your twisting can change this.

 

[Michael16]

Mcq, I forgive you your accusation against me that I twisted Scripture.

But, I see several things in your exegesis.

A: You evaded my invitation to show me where Jesus taught faith alone justification. You haven’t shown me.

B: You misquoted the Gospel of Saint John. Saint John was speaking in verses 3:15-18 and didn’t quote Jesus Himself.

You could consider that twisting Scripture. But, I assume you misunderstood in all honesty.

C: If Our Lord taught faith alone justification; why would He judge us by our deeds and not just on our faith or lack of it? This quotation of Our Lord alone shows that works are necessary for salvation. Thus, refuting faith alone justification.

D: I invite you to consider the spirit of Our Lord’s Teaching and not just intellectual head wringing over exact wording and to read Scripture plainly without reading any preconceptions of what YOU believe what Scripture says. I all capped for emphasis; not yelling. I hope you understand me.

E: Again I ask: Please show me where Our Lord Himself taught faith alone justification.
My challenge to you is that He never did.

 

[TNMan]

Let me interject here, if I may. As you know, I probably will be crossing the Tiber in the future, but I think where some Protestants get hung up on this is this: (and I’m a LCMS Lutheran, so maybe that’s why I see things this way)

We are saved by grace, through faith. Not a thing we can do to earn it. Not a thing. This faith must show itself in love. Jesus COMMANDED us to love the Lord and love others. That is agape, love; an action. We are told in scripture that we will be judge by our deeds. That’s not to say person A helps an old lady cross the street, while person B flew to the Bahamas to help rescue people trapped in their homes after Dorian went through because he or she feels called by the Spirit to do so.

Now, Person B can’t boast that their deed was greater than person A’s (as St. Paul says). God will judge us based on our hearts and the gifts He’s given us. So Person A and Person B can both count their good deeds as pleasing to God. These deeds came from their faith that was revealed to them by the Father

Both deeds don’t make them righteous in and of themselves, but both persons A and B will be rewarded by their actions, but those actions don’t justify them.

I hope that made sense. Or maybe I sound Catholic and need to make the jump sooner.

 

[De_Maria]

…Both deeds don’t make them righteous in and of themselves, but both persons A and B will be rewarded by their actions, but those actions don’t justify them.

I hope that made sense. Or maybe I sound Catholic and need to make the jump sooner.

It makes a great deal of sense. You illustrate precisely what St. Paul said in Titus 3:5

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done,

So, not by the fact he helped an elderly lady cross the street nor because he flew to the Bahamas to rescue people trapped in their homes.

but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Yes, it makes a great deal of sense. Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut.

 

[Michael16]

You’re fine, TNMan. I take no offense at what you said. I appreciate your interjection.

Now, I appreciate that Luther had said that works are necessary to prove faith.

But, he was wrong in saying that works aren’t necessary for salvation. In my understanding, that contradicts Our Lord’s judgment on our deeds. That proves the necessity of works in our salvation.

Faith IS the starting point of our salvation; I believe that we can all agree on that. My point isn’t that works alone saves. That’s an unscriptural position as we can read plainly in Scripture. If we stop on just faith, as Saint James teaches and Luther had issue with Saint James on this; than why would we be damned or saved on whether or not we acted on that faith? Faith necessarily leads to works for our salvation. Otherwise, as Saint James teaches; faith is dead.

But, Luther made an exegetical run around trying to prove that faith alone saves. We can prove in plain reading Of Scripture, especially in Saint James 2:25; and in the lives of the saints; that works are necessary in our salvation; not merely the proof of faith.

I’ll pray that you make the jump home soon, brother. God bless you and I love you.

 

[mcq72]

We are told in scripture that we will be judge by our deeds.

This unfortunately may also be used by some to show that our deeds then may be used also for justification, being saved.

I believe scripture says there are two books, one the book of life, the other everybody’s works. If you are saved and persevere you will be written and remain so in the book of life. That is what is used to get you into heaven, or better yet seperates you from those who will be judged at the “great white throne judgement”. That is where folks will be strictly judged by their works, having no imputation from Christ’s righteousness by faith. Their works will fail them and they will all be cast in lake of fire.

Meanwhile the righteous, those in book of life, will also have their works in Christ be judged being mentioned in scripture as the “judgement seat of Christ.” So saints will have works judged, whether they be stubble or gold, determining position, role and rewards in New kingdom, not for salvation however.

So again I believe scripture shows a distinction for the purpose of works being judged, and a distinction in such between the saved and unsaved.

The unsaved prefer to be judged on their own merit and shun Christ’s merit, and so it will be in that day.

The saved plead the blood, Christ’s merit for salvation in that day. They also trust God to judge any Christian works for their glorification in heaven ( but not to get into heaven).

So yes there is faith in His work for our salvation. There is also works done in and for Christ after our salvation. Don’t believe in mixing faith and works for salvation, especially initial salvation. Why would one want to plead ones work in Christ, which indeed may have some gold in it, after pleading Christ’s work which is for sure pure gold and supreme in quantity and quality? That is like first placating the judge with a million dollar offering and then adding to it with a thousand dollars here and there.

Our works have more value in proving , showing forth, resting in the million dollar offering. Any self righteousness tarnishes our work.

 

[TNMan]

Works do not save us, if they did, there would’ve been no need for Christ to die for us. They are required based on the talents and gifts God gives us. I think we may be saying the same thing in different ways.

 

[TULIPed]

Setting aside for the moment the scriptural “sword fight”- what do you think the practical implications are of the “faith alone” argument. How does a belief that faith alone saves negatively affect a person practically?

Just for the sake of argument - assume that the person who has such a theology is actually a believer in Christ. I know, I know - we can’t know this, only God knows. But for the sake of this exercise, assume that we do know that they are a believer in Christ, and their theology is “faith alone”.

How does their theology negatively impact their lives practically day-to-day?

 

[mcq72]

Works do not save us, if they did, there would’ve been no need for Christ to die for us. They are required based on the talents and gifts God gives us. I think we may be saying the same thing in different ways.

I think so…appreciate very much your post.

 

[TNMan]

I think people can fall into “I’m saved so I don’t need to do this or that” mode. I don’t mean this as a jab, but I think of Non-denom, Baptist, etc. when I say this. Some, not all, think that they are saved by faith and they don’t need to go to church every Sunday (if they’re able), tithe, help the poor, give to charity, etc.

I don’t think they go as deep into what the first reformers meant by “faith alone.” They just take it at face value and run with it.

 

[mcq72]

How does their theology negatively impact their lives practically day-to-day?

Well I suppose the negative extreme could be not developing your “talents”, or as like some of Paul’s letters where grace is abused by sinning more.

On the flip side, faith and works has the negative extreme of self righteousness, a lack of joy due to feeling obliged or needing good works, trying to prove one’s justification.

 

[TNMan]

Absolutely. It’s SO tempting when you do something good to pay yourself on the back, or feel despair when you fail to do something.

That’s where you have to remember grace abounds.

 

[De_Maria]

This unfortunately may also be used by some to show that our deeds then may be used also for justification, being saved.

I don’t know anyone who says, “I’m saved by my works!” The only ones I know who proclaim their salvation are those who hold to the concept of salvation by faith alone.

Do you know anyone who says they are saved by their works?

 

[De_Maria]

Just for the sake of argument - assume that the person who has such a theology is actually a believer in Christ. I know, I know - we can’t know this, only God knows. But for the sake of this exercise, assume that we do know that they are a believer in Christ, and their theology is “faith alone”.

Well, do you consider Luther a believer in Christ?

Let’s say that you do. Just for the sake of argument. He is the originator of the faith alone
soteriology. And he also advised a King to marry a second wife while he was still married to the first. He advised that husbands need not wait for their wives if their wives were not willing, the maid would be. And he is known to have been a very vulgar man in his speech.

So, that’s what I, personally, believe can happen to people who may even sincerely believe, yet follow that erroneous doctrine. And, I’ve met people who believe in committing a sin, such as adultery, just to show Satan that they aren’t afraid of him because they are now saved.

How does their theology negatively impact their lives practically day-to-day?

They presume their salvation and continue in sin acting as though sin is a sacrament through which they will receive an abundance of grace.

 

[De_Maria]

Well I suppose the negative extreme could be not developing your “talents”, or as like some of Paul’s letters where grace is abused by sinning more.

On the flip side, faith and works has the negative extreme of self righteousness, a lack of joy due to feeling obliged or needing good works, trying to prove one’s justification.

Who does that? Name one Catholic that you’ve encountered who enumerates their works to you and claims salvation based upon those works.

Plenty of Protestants do that. Almost every single one says, “I remember the day and hour that I proclaimed my faith in Christ and was saved.”

Ironically, they don’t see that that is a proclamation of salvation by something they did.

 

[mcq72]

don’t know anyone who says, “I’m saved by my works!”

I don’t either. That is why I carefully put in the word “also”…as in deeds also justify (along with faith according to some.)

 

[Michael16]

Here’s the thing, mcq:

Have you talked with any devout practicing Catholics? Not one that I know of profess any self righteousness, obligation to do good works or feeling like they have to prove their justification.

Speaking for myself: I’ve never felt any onerous obligation to do good works, self righteousness or any lack of joy in doing good works.

In fact: I feel great joy that by doing good works; I participate in and contribute to my salvation.

When I looked at Saint James 2:25 while I was Protestant; I’ve always felt it telling me that I have to walk the walk and do the Do with my faith or otherwise, my faith counts as nothing.

 

[TULIPed]

So, that’s what I, personally, believe can happen to people who may even sincerely believe, yet follow that erroneous doctrine. And, I’ve met people who believe in committing a sin, such as adultery, just to show Satan that they aren’t afraid of him because they are now saved.

Fair enough. I agree, that practically speaking, a danger of the “faith alone” theology is that one could - in spite of Paul’s warnings to the contrary in Romans 6:1 - “sin so that grace abounds”. Further, it doesn’t surprise me that you know somebody who takes such a twisted position to heart.

Have you met any “faith alone” folks though who live lives befitting a follower of Christ? People who quietly go about their lives loving Christ and their fellow men and women sacrificially? If so, why do you think they do it?

 

[mcq72]

Who does that? Name one Catholic that you’ve encountered who enumerates their works to you and claims salvation based upon those works.

No one…u misunderstood…i said faith and works…for sure some here proclaim their works as salvific along with faith…

 

[Michael16]

Answer me, please mcq.