'Sola Caritas' Trumps 'Sola fide'

[Michael16]

As in: He heard it and he did it. Faith: He heard it. Works: He did it.

 

[Michael16]

No, that’s not what you said. What you’re saying is an heretical interpretation of the passage. As well as violating common sense. How in the heck does faith alone save you when Our Lord commands us to: Repent. Repent means to change your ways. Change your ACTIONS.

Faith alone cannot save you.

 

[RaisedCatholic]

No, that’s not what you said. What you’re saying is an heretical interpretation of the passage. As well as violating common sense.

Okay, how about explaining what you “think” I said. That might be more constructive.

 

[RaisedCatholic]

How in the heck does faith alone save you when Our Lord commands us to: Repent. Repent means to change your ways. Change your ACTIONS.

Repenting is part of believing. When you believe, you WILL repent, because your heart has been regenerated.

 

[Michael16]

No, faith doesn’t mean that. Repent is changing what you do. If I just believe, which is what Saint James was teaching about dead faith; and not change my ways; I’m still damned. Please explain that.

 

[Michael16]

Believing isn’t the same as acting. That’s the heart of the lie of faith alone.

I can believe and still not do a Blessed thing. That damns people. One MUST act.

Think of this example hypothetical: I believe that smoking cigarettes is wrong. Yet, I smoke cigarettes anyway. I can still still do what I believe is wrong. Faith alone didn’t save from smoking.

Thus: Faith plus works means saved. Thus, faith AND works.

Sorry, Luther screwed up and led people to sin and perdition.

 

[mcq72]

And, Luther implemented the idea of the bible alone, in order to undermine the authority of the Church, which he wanted to escape.

Only undermine what is used for a norm.

 

[Michael16]

Nope. Try again! He undermined 1,500 years of teaching because of his psychopathology.

 

[Michael16]

Norm means standard, the canon; the standard formation of something.

Aaahhhhh, no. Try again.

Let’s try this: Can you demonstrate that faith alone Christians are any better than Catholics?

Can you demonstrate that Protestant traditions create better Christians than what the Church did in 500 years of Luther’s poison’s history?

Not counting the previous 1,500?

Not to mention how the Church is still united; whereas Protestant denominations number between 30-40. Not counting the watered down non denominational Protestant Christianity that really is just a cop out?

 

[Michael16]

Mcq? where are you?

 

[De_Maria]

It rather sounds like a description of your penchant for eisegesis. We should note

We should note that the verse does not say, faith ALONE. And we should note that your reading faith ALONE into it, makes it contradict James 2:24.

that the verse does not speak of repentance, baptism, or obedience.

Because they are assumed.

In other words, not much in common with the actual text in question.

Completely in line with the actual text. It is your interpretation which does violence to the Word of God and twists it horribly against itself.

It says the very opposite - we are not saved because of any righteous deeds we have done.

That does not mean that we are not to do righteous deeds. Only those who do righteous deeds are in the group of which St. Paul is speaking. And this reading is consistent with the entire Scriptures on the same matter:

Exodus 20:6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.

Romans 2:13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

Hebrews 10:36 You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.

Paul does not even boast of having produced any righteous works.

On the contrary, he says:

not because of righteous things we had done

Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin. (Rom. 3:20)

And he also says:

Rom 2:13 Doers of the Law will be declared righteous.

cont’d

 

[De_Maria]

cont’d

Or rather, “and not only by faith.” It is not a denial of the fact that Abraham was justified by faith alone when he believed the promise of God (Gen. 15:6).

Abraham was not justified by faith alone. St. Paul enumerates all the works that Abraham accomplished by faith, before he was justified.

Heb 11: 8 By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. 9 By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. 10 For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God. 11 And by faith even Sarah, who was past childbearing age, was enabled to bear children because she considered him faithful who had made the promise. 12 And so from this one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore.

What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” (Rom. 4:1–3)

Abraham was not justified by the righteous works that he did. But he would not have been justified if he had not done them. The same is true of everyone else.

Romans 2:6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Paul’s argument is based on the premise that Abraham was not justified by works before God.

On the contrary, when understood in the light of his entire teaching, it is clear that St. Paul is showing that only those who have proved their righteousness by keeping the law, are just in God’s eyes. And it is they who will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit and the washing of regeneration, which is the righteousness of God.

Well, it is not the ritual per se that makes us walk in the newness of life, but the commitment of faith in Christ. A commitment manifested by the convert having him-/herself baptized.

Unless one has faith enough to submit to the ritual, he will not walk in the newness of life.

Baptism does not remove the defilement of the flesh—it is the believer’s appeal to God for a good conscience by faith in his/her Savior.

And that only happens in Baptism.

 

[Johan]

As in: He heard it and he did it. Faith: He heard it. Works: He did it.

I still don’t follow. He did what? And do you think he was justified at the moment he believed?

 

[Michael16]

Faith is only the starting point, my friend. If I believe but don’t act on that faith; I’m not justified.

 

[Michael16]

He heard God’s command to go to Canaan and he did it.

He heard and believed and he did it. Works.

If he didn’t do it, whic is dead faith; he wasn’t justified. You see? BOTH.

 

[De_Maria]

When James says a man is “justified” by works, & not by “faith alone,” he is referring back to Genesis 22:3-5 when Abraham took Isaac to sacrifice him out of obedience to God, & the two men who went with them “saw” his “works” of obedience to God.

Who was there? Provide the verse. It isn’t Gen 22:3-5
Genesis 22:3 Early the next morning Abraham got up and loaded his donkey. He took with him two of his servants and his son Isaac. When he had cut enough wood for the burnt offering, he set out for the place God had told him about. 4 On the third day Abraham looked up and saw the place in the distance. 5 He said to his servants, “Stay here with the donkey while I and the boy go over there. We will worship and then we will come back to you.”

If they had been there and seen that, I’m sure they would have tried to stop him. After all, there is no record that they were receiving messages from God.

But, feel free to provide the verse that says they saw him sacrifice Isaac.

James is simply saying Abraham was justified before the men who saw him BY his works (James 2:18),

There was no one there but Abraham, Isaac and God.

while Paul who cites this same passage states that Abraham was justified by his FAITH before God (Romans 4:3) but NOT by his works (v.2).

That’s not what God says:

11 But the angel of the Lord called out to him from heaven, “Abraham! Abraham!”

“Here I am,” he replied.

Gen 22:12 “Do not lay a hand on the boy,” he said. “Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son.”

Nothing there about faith alone. But only about the actions which Abraham took to obey God’s will.

Actually, you are talking in circles, because I explained that James begins the passage by talking about a kind of “dead faith” that does not PRODUCE good works. This kind of “phony faith” that is void of good works does not save.

Scripture calls that faith, faith alone.

James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

He is speaking about “easy-believism,” or antinomialism, which is foreign to Protestantism that is “dead faith.”

On the contrary, that is what most Protestants teach and practice.

cont’d

 

[De_Maria]

cont’d

He is not talking about the salvation experience, but what RESULTS from it. If there are no good works, James is saying that “fake faith” is dead, but if there are good works it demonstrates TO OTHER PEOPLE that faith is alive. You have to take the entire passage of James 2 into context, not just an isolated verse or two out of context like “by works a man is justified, and not by faith only” or you misinterpret the whole passage.

You’ve twisted the context. You claim that two men witnessed what Abraham did. But that is not in Scripture. You claim that he says that we are justified for good works. But he explicitly says:

James 2:24You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

Again, Paul is saying the same thing James is:

Yep. And debunking Luther at the same time.

a “doer” of the law demonstrates by their works - to other people - that their saving faith “alone” was genuine.

Demonstrates to God, first.

Romans 2:6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[a]

If it doesn’t, it is dead & not genuine. Remember, people cannot see one’s genuine faith which is invisible like God can.

That is correct. That is also why works alone are dead. Because God knows whether one’s works are by faith or not.

They can only see it “by” their works. Same with what the writer of Hebrews is saying, “doers” will receive the promise, because their good works DEMONSTRATES to other people their faith is “alive” & not “dead”:

Men can’t read other men’s hearts. Not even by their works. Ever hear of the church deacon who was a serial killer. Everyone thought he was such a great guy.

" But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will SHOW YOU my faith BY my works.” (James 2:18)

Verse 18 is the crux of the entire passage. Without it, the passage makes it sounds like James is promoting “faith plus works salvation,” which he is not.

He absolutely is. Even this verse supports salvation by faith and works.

 

[Johan]

We should note that the verse does not say, faith ALONE. And we should note that your reading faith ALONE into it, makes it contradict James 2:24.

The verse says “does not work but trusts God.” That is what we call faith alone. And there is no contradiction with James 2:24. Paul rejects the idea that Abraham was justified by works before God (Rom. 4:2). So unless you think the biblical authors contradict each other, James is apparently not teaching justification by works before God. That is called harmonization.

Because they are assumed.

And that is technically called eisegesis. You read your preconceived ideas into the text.

Completely in line with the actual text. It is your interpretation which does violence to the Word of God and twists it horribly against itself.

I simply read the text as it stands: God justifies the ungodly who do not work but trust Him. That can surely not be to twist the text.

That does not mean that we are not to do righteous deeds.

But that is a different matter entirely. We are indeed to do righteous deeds, but not in order to be justified. Good works are the fruit of salvation rather than the cause thereof.

not because of righteous things we had done

That is what we would call a hypothetical. Even if he would have done righteous works, those works would not have contributed to his salvation—nor are they a precondition for salvation.

And he also says:

Rom 2:13 Doers of the Law will be declared righteous.

Right, but the problem is that there are no doers of the Law. Hence, we need to set our hopes on a righteousness that is “apart from the Law” (Rom. 3:21).

 

[RaisedCatholic]

Think of this example hypothetical: I believe that smoking cigarettes is wrong. Yet, I smoke cigarettes anyway. I can still still do what I believe is wrong. Faith alone didn’t save from smoking.

If you believe that smoking is wrong & you smoke anyways, your faith is “dead” because you are not demonstrating that what you believe is true. But if you demonstrate your faith by the “work” of not smoking, you are demonstrating to other people, as well as to God, that your faith is genuine. So, yes, faith alone will LEAD to good works, but it doesn’t contribute to your salvation. Jesus did not say “whoever believes in me AND DOES GOOD WORKS will have eternal life.”

Again, when one TRULY believes, he WILL repent. If he doesn’t, he won’t. Repentance is not the same thing as “doing penance.” This is where Jerome erred in his Latin translation (which even modern Catholic Bibles have corrected him). Once a person believes, which is the work of the Holy Spirit, since it is a gift (Ephesians 2:8-9), they will repent because their faith opens their eyes to their sin, and their need to repent. Repent is not a “work.” It is a changing of one’s MIND as the result of faith. This is what Luther realized when he read Romans 1:17:

" BUT THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."

By “live,” this doesn’t refer to physically living, but being brought “alive” by GOD’s righteousness:

“For not knowing about God’s righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.” (Romans 10:3)

 

[Johan]

Abraham was not justified by faith alone. St. Paul enumerates all the works that Abraham accomplished by faith, before he was justified.

If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” (Rom. 4:2–3)

So even though Abraham performed works of faith, those works did not justify him. Rather, those works showed that He genuinely trusted God.

Abraham was not justified by the righteous works that he did. But he would not have been justified if he had not done them.

So you do admit that Abraham was not justified by his righteous works. Always something. But God did not suspend His justification of Abraham until he had works to show.

Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness. (Gen. 15:6)

It is highly significant that the first time faith is mentioned in the Bible, it is immediately connected to the attainment of righteousness.

Romans 2:6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” [a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

And Jesus said that the work that God requires is to believe in Christ, our Savior (John 6:29). We are, in fact, repaid for what Christ has done for us. He is our righteousness.

On the contrary, when understood in the light of his entire teaching, it is clear that St. Paul is showing that only those who have proved their righteousness by keeping the law, are just in God’s eyes.

That is simply nonsense, and not even your fellow Catholics seem to agree with you on that point.

You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. (Gal. 5:4)

So you are teaching precisely the false gospel that Paul condemned. Those who seek justification through the Law are under a curse and have been alienated from Christ.