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MagdalenaRita
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Yes, as for now anyway. If we work on it we are always growing in the knowledge of the Lord.
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mcq72
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Not sure how dying (to self), in face of His righteousness, be self righteous ?
If what i prescribed (essentially meeting Jesus and the Holy Spirit) is a one way self dialougue, self judging experience, then that would be a bazaar way of looking at it. How can a dead person judge themselves???
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De_Maria
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Did Jesus say that you died to self? Or did you claim that you died to self?De_Maria:
Not sure how dying (to self), in face of His righteousness, be self righteous ?
Here’s what you said:
Now, since Jesus isn’t the one speaking. But you are the one speaking, then you are judging yourself righteous and deserving of eternal life. That is the definition of self righteous.
Again, you are claiming that you keep the Commandments and thus deserve that God repay you with the Holy Spirit and giving you assurance that you are saved.
That is you saying that you are deserving of eternal life.
You aren’t dead. You are claiming to know how your judgment will be decided.
God will grant eternal life to the righteous. But the righteous don’t go around boasting that God owes them eternal life because of their deeds. They leave the judging to God.
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mcq72
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Do not deny that a believer can keep what Jesus commanded: foremost to believe on Him, and to love God and man with everything you are.
I also believe as we do these things which we once did not, we will rejoice in God’s sanctifying grace and work in us.
I think baptism could qualify for such a confession, especially in early church when baptism was more immediate upon belief.
But please note the confession in baptism is before, before the water immersion.
No , the point is if you are in book of life you will not be judged by your works to get into heaven. I think ypu would agree the matter is settled here, and if you die in Grace you will not need to be judged of being heaven bound ( even if thru purgatory) or hell bound. The book of works we rest from in that regard, but not in regards to our rewards.
The work that I admitted to is the work of faith, dying to ourselves and calling out to Him, and confessing that He saved you. The confessing is not the justifier, but the fruit of it, inseperable in true justification/ faith.
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mcq72
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Well then my friend every confessor is self righteous. One can only confess what they believe they have experienced in truth. One can only act out such things also which are visible to man. So all you can have have from me is that, and if you wantcto call that self righteous be my guest. Of course you can also ask for personal discernment from the Spirit to help bear witness now, as He will surely bear His witness in that great day.
But by your definition no one can escape then what you define as self righteousness.
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De_Maria
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(you) Do not deny that a believer can keep what Jesus commanded:
Good.
To believe and to love God and man is a repudiation of faith alone. Since love of God and man is added to faith.
The gateway to sanctifying grace is Baptism.
God is the source of everything that is good. If we do anything good, it is God working in us.
Baptism is the ritual to which St. Paul is making reference where "If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. " Rom 10:9
But it is within the ritual of Baptism and it is the pouring of the water which signifies the washing of regeneration.
That contradicts Scripture. Everyone in the book of Life has been judged according to their works and if they did not have any righteous works, they were not written in the book of Life.
Revelation 20:12 New International Version (NIV)
12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.
Everyone is judged. There is no exclusion.
You can continue to make up your own theology. But God says that only those who do His will and keep His Commandments, will be saved.
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mcq72
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Perhaps but remember he also said to some carnal saints on the matter, " I am glad i did not baptize any of you" ( my mission is to preach the gospel).
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mcq72
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Please read earlier about the first resurection (of saints only), who will not taste the second death. The resurection you quoted is later, of all the unsaved. They are judged by their works, all falling short, and then they are not found in book of life, ehere Christs works would have sufficed for them, and cast into hell.
God is not a God of the “dead”, but of the living.
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De_Maria
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Non sequitur. A person who is confessing his sins is repenting of his wrong doing. You are boasting of your righteousness.
On the contrary, a righteous person does not pretend to know that which only God knows.
What does that have to do with anything? We’re talking about justification. The fact that men can and must do good works before justification. The fact that God only justifies those who keep His Law and do His will.
We are not talking about whether or not St. Paul baptized everyone.
Don’t you recognize them? They are the Jews of the Old Testament and the Apostles and the martyrs. They have already been judged by their works.
Rev 20: 4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
It is the second judgment. And it is according to every man’s works. They are judged according to their works and if their works pass muster, they are written into the book of Life. If not, they are not written into the book of Life and they are cast into the sea.
12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.
You are making a mockery of the idea of judgment. Do you believe that God will make a sham judgment and pretend to judge people?
We believe God is righteous and true and that the Word of God is speaking plainly.
It is true. But has no bearing on your argument. God still judges the dead and the living. God is Master of all.
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mcq72
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Beg to differ. They most certainly can pretend, as they most also certainly can know, as well as most certainly not be sure. Are you absolutely sure no one can be sure ? Are you absolutely not presuming that others are?
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mcq72
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Correct. And He can not deny the “living”, as He does the “dead”. Does He have to judge whether that whom He has called as living, that he is living?
What, do you think everybody is resurrected at once, the living and the dead, saints and non believers, all line up for their judgement…by same fashion, going over works first, then book of life…? Arent most souls st their destination bookanyways?
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De_Maria
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Once they pretend that they know what God knows, then they are no longer righteous. Since at that point, they are committing the sin of presumption.
They can only know if they have a private revelation from God.
I am absolutely sure that you are getting desperate because everything you’ve concocted has been proven to be against the plain speaking Teaching of Scripture.
Lol! This is not about me. This is about the Teaching of Scripture and Scripture says that in order for one to be righteous in God’s eyes, one must do God’s will. Scripture also says that God alone judges the heart.
So, you are proven wrong, yet again.
God does not lie. He says that He will judge everyone by what they have done. I believe Him. You don’t.
That’s the bottomline.
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mcq72
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Are you insisting that believing is not a doing, that faith is not a verb? Is believing part of God’s will ? Do you really think we say after believing you aren’t called, led, graced into holiness, and obedience to his will, till the day you die?
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mcq72
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Well. I would rather you say He will judge everyone by what they have done dependent on what they have been given. More specifically, if they have entered in by the narrow gate that is Jesus Christ…that has to be on there somewhere…even like faith and works but certainly not just works…of course we say faith that produces works.
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mcq72
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For sure He judges the best, yet He tells us when we judge, to judge righteously.
And yes we look more often on the outside ( works) than to the inside.
Part of me wants to say that is right. Like if you have not heard the voice and follow the Shepherd you aren’t saved.
As John says, little children…that you may hope but not presume to have eternal life…no wait…that you may know you have eternal…judging yourself self righteously…no, but because you have an unction from the Holy One…and elswhere we read His Spirit bearing witness to our spirit that we are His children.
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De_Maria
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Are you saying that you believe you are saved by works?
Yes.
I believe you say that believing is the same as being born again.
I believe you say that one is automatically saved when they believe.
But Scripture says that only those who keep the Law of God are justified.:
Romans 2:13 New International Version (NIV)
13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.
And Scripture says that one is born again by water and spirit:
John 3:3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again. 4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!” 5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.
Thus, you contradict Scripture.
You keep insinuating that we say just works. But the Catholic Church Teaches salvation by faith AND WORKS.
No. You say that faith produces salvation and salvation produces works. But faith alone is dead and produces nothing. Faith which produces works is saving faith.
You keep changing venues in order to justify your errors. ONLY GOD JUDGES THE HEART AND ONLY GOD’S JUDGMENT COUNTS.
Of course, we have to realize that our lives are sinful and turn to Him and strive for righteousness. But that is not the same judgment that we are talking about. We are talking about the JUDGE who decides whether we are saved or not. We are talking about the JUDGE who decides our eternal destiny.
When it comes to another human being all you can see is the outside.
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De_Maria
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There is no absolute assurance of salvation. Only those whom God has given a private revelation can know if they are saved with absolute knowledge.
Thank you.
Read it and weep.
1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
Do you keep His Commandments? Yes or no.
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mcq72
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I do believe in early father writing of Barnabus,
"To those knowledgeable of the Lord’s precepts, keep them, as many as are written. "
Correct. It does not say by keeping His commandments you will then know Him (and be saved). It says if you know Him, you will keep His commandments.
"And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
1 John 3:23 KJV
Yes.
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
1 John 5:13 KJV
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RaisedCatholic
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All the text says it was “in the distance.” There is no indication in the text that it says they could not see them. If so, then please provide the verse where is says they couldn’t. Plus, the same Greek word in the Septuagint for “distance” (μακρόθεν) used in Genesis 22 is the same Greek word used in the NT where the woman SAW Jesus on the cross “from a distance” (Matthew 27:55). So, yes, the two men in Genesis 22 could “see” Abraham “in the distance.”
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Michael16
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@Johan, first off: You have to prove that works don’t have salvific effect. For a man can believe and not act on that faith. Then, as Saint James says faith is dead. Again: Faith and works.
Now, to address Christ’s Sacrifice: Think of Christ’s Sacrifice as a reconciliation to the Father; a “ opening “ of the floodgates of grace that we receive in being gifted with the initial faith in Him. Now, that doesn’t mean that Christ’s Sacrifice was insufficient. Non, God forbid. What that means is: Christ BOUGHT us the opportunity for salvation with His Precious Blood and Water on the Cross of Calvary.
You must remember that faith is only the starting point and can only be completed in works.
The other point to remember is that with faith as a starter point; we still have to work out our individual salvation by working on what leads us to sin. That’s conversion. Faith alone cannot do that. Only persistent effort in works does. That’s what Saint Paul teaches in work out your salvation with fear and trembling.
Frankly, the whole faith alone/faith not alone flies in the face of common sense and reason.
For when you take faith alone/faith not alone at face value; faith alone means I don’t have to do good works in order to be saved. Yet, faith not alone says that faith isn’t alone and requires works. Then, the Protestant apologist has to somehow justify the necessity of works; with out it being necessary for salvation. Again, that requires fast talking and exegetical gymnastics to “ resolve “ the contradiction. I hope you see my point.
Thus, you see what Saint Paul teaches in faith apart, not alone; from works. If you apply common sense to that reading, you see that Saint Paul doesn’t deny the salvific role of works. Then, look at that doers of the Law are justified; not the hearers. Then, Saint Paul goes on to teach on the hypocrisy of teachers of the Law that don’t do the Law.
Once you understand that; Saint Paul agrees with Saint James.
What the reformers did was set Saint Paul in contradiction to Saint James and then had to do some fast talking and exegetical gymnastics to “ resolve “ the contradiction.
Now, if you reject Church authority, you reject the Bible itself; as it was the Holy Mother Church that defined the Bible.
Even Luther retained the vast majority of the Bible, except for the deuterocanonical books; even the parts that contradict him. Much to his ire.
Now, to address Christ’s Sacrifice: Think of Christ’s Sacrifice as a reconciliation to the Father; a “ opening “ of the floodgates of grace that we receive in being gifted with the initial faith in Him. Now, that doesn’t mean that Christ’s Sacrifice was insufficient. Non, God forbid. What that means is: Christ BOUGHT us the opportunity for salvation with His Precious Blood and Water on the Cross of Calvary.
You must remember that faith is only the starting point and can only be completed in works.
The other point to remember is that with faith as a starter point; we still have to work out our individual salvation by working on what leads us to sin. That’s conversion. Faith alone cannot do that. Only persistent effort in works does. That’s what Saint Paul teaches in work out your salvation with fear and trembling.
Frankly, the whole faith alone/faith not alone flies in the face of common sense and reason.
For when you take faith alone/faith not alone at face value; faith alone means I don’t have to do good works in order to be saved. Yet, faith not alone says that faith isn’t alone and requires works. Then, the Protestant apologist has to somehow justify the necessity of works; with out it being necessary for salvation. Again, that requires fast talking and exegetical gymnastics to “ resolve “ the contradiction. I hope you see my point.
Thus, you see what Saint Paul teaches in faith apart, not alone; from works. If you apply common sense to that reading, you see that Saint Paul doesn’t deny the salvific role of works. Then, look at that doers of the Law are justified; not the hearers. Then, Saint Paul goes on to teach on the hypocrisy of teachers of the Law that don’t do the Law.
Once you understand that; Saint Paul agrees with Saint James.
What the reformers did was set Saint Paul in contradiction to Saint James and then had to do some fast talking and exegetical gymnastics to “ resolve “ the contradiction.
Now, if you reject Church authority, you reject the Bible itself; as it was the Holy Mother Church that defined the Bible.
Even Luther retained the vast majority of the Bible, except for the deuterocanonical books; even the parts that contradict him. Much to his ire.
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