'Sola Caritas' Trumps 'Sola fide'

[Johan]

@Johan, first off: You have to prove that works don’t have salvific effect. For a man can believe and not act on that faith. Then, as Saint James says faith is dead. Again: Faith and works.

What do you mean by “salvific effect”? That our works somehow “contribute” to our salvation? But Paul expressly denies that salvation is even partly caused by our works (Eph. 2:9; 2 Tim. 1:9; Tit. 3:5)—we have solely been saved because of God’s salvific work in Christ.

Now, to address Christ’s Sacrifice: Think of Christ’s Sacrifice as a reconciliation to the Father; a “ opening “ of the floodgates of grace that we receive in being gifted with the initial faith in Him. Now, that doesn’t mean that Christ’s Sacrifice was insufficient. Non, God forbid. What that means is: Christ BOUGHT us the opportunity for salvation with His Precious Blood and Water on the Cross of Calvary.

Sorry, but I am not satisfied with that answer. Christ did not merely buy us the “opportunity” for salvation—He bought salvation for His people.

You must remember that faith is only the starting point and can only be completed in works.

I cannot “remember” what I simply do not agree with. Faith is not only the starting point but also the midpoint and the endpoint of our lives in and with Christ.

I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. (Gal. 2:20)

The other point to remember is that with faith as a starter point; we still have to work out our individual salvation by working on what leads us to sin. That’s conversion. Faith alone cannot do that. Only persistent effort in works does. That’s what Saint Paul teaches in work out your salvation with fear and trembling.

He also teaches that we already have been saved (Eph. 2:8–9) by grace, through faith, and without works. In another post, I likened salvation to a plant that has been planted by God. He nurtures and waters it, but we also contribute by bearing the fruit of salvation that He expects to see. One aspect of this work is to be of the same mindset as Christ (Phil. 2:5–11), showing each other respect in a state of humility. This is how we “work out” what God has already begun in us, knowing that He continues to work in us (Phil. 2:13). We have been saved in order to bear much fruit—we are not saved because we bear fruit. Cause and effect are very important to distinguish in this case.

Frankly, the whole faith alone/faith not alone flies in the face of common sense and reason.

The Gospel in general flies in the face of common sense and reason (1 Cor. 1:18). Sola fide is a recognition of the fact that Christ has not merely given us an “opportunity” to be saved, but actually saved us. Soli Deo gloria.

 

[mcq72]

I cannot “remember” what I simply do not agree with. Faith is not only the starting point but also the midpoint and the endpoint of our lives in and with Christ.

You actually believe that He that began a good work in you is able to finish it…and that every good work must have a foundation, and be done in faith? So do I.

 

[mcq72]

Even Luther retained the vast majority of the Bible, except for the deuterocanonical books

I believe Luther retained all books, including deuterocanonical/ apocryphal books. In fact some say his bible had 74 books to Catholics 73. Both had less OT books than Septuaguint.

 

[TULIPed]

Soli Deo gloria.

Amen brother.

 

[Johan]

For when you take faith alone/faith not alone at face value; faith alone means I don’t have to do good works in order to be saved. Yet, faith not alone says that faith isn’t alone and requires works. Then, the Protestant apologist has to somehow justify the necessity of works; with out it being necessary for salvation. Again, that requires fast talking and exegetical gymnastics to “ resolve “ the contradiction. I hope you see my point.

Well, the way some Protestants express this relationship makes me extremely uncomfortable. It is sometimes (derogatorily) called “sneaking works through the backdoor.” In other words, they present faith so closely married to works that they effectively teach that we cannot be saved without good works. I want to recall that the renowned author John Piper is one of the culprits in this regard. One of the symptoms is the way they denigrate certain Evangelicalism as “easy believism.”

However, there is nothing “easy” about the salvation Christ purchased for His people! I wholeheartedly reject the idea that we are saved by a certain kind of faith, a faith that has to be proven “genuine” through works. We are not saved by the quality of our faith, but by the object of our faith, which is Christ. We were saved even before we got the opportunity to demonstrate the genuineness of our faith. Evangelicals embracing this kind of “weak” sola fide might as well convert to Catholicism. Protestantism without strict monergism (≈ God does everything with regard to our salvation) is not Protestantism in my book. It is half-hearted Catholicism mixed with half-hearted Protestantism.

What the reformers did was set Saint Paul in contradiction to Saint James and then had to do some fast talking and exegetical gymnastics to “ resolve “ the contradiction.

Well, there are some quite obvious possible contradictions that need to be resolved. One of the more significant being that James claims that Abraham was justified by works, whereas Paul rejects the idea that he was (Rom. 4:2). The Evangelical solution, and to which I adhere, is that the two authors are using the verb “justify” differently.

Now, if you reject Church authority, you reject the Bible itself; as it was the Holy Mother Church that defined the Bible.

I do not reject church authority—I reject the authority of the Catholic church. I could go into the details of why I make this distinction, but since the moderators seem to be quite trigger-happy when the posters are not “respectful” enough, I will refrain from doing so.

 

[Michael16]

@mcq72 He left out the deuterocanonical books as inspired but still useful and good to read. That means he cut them out of the canon; i.e.; the Bible. He didn’t add any books. He altered Romans with his interpolation and attempted to justify it as clarification of the text.

Get your Bible and history right.

 

[mcq72]

He left out the deuterocanonical books as inspired but still useful and good to read. That means he cut them out of the canon;

umm, not sure bible has "canon’…but yes, like jerome, he prefaced books with commentary,i think jerome felt same way and had prefaces…jerome had to be told, ordered, , or was strongly suggested for him to do so( include deutero), going against his scholarly convictions.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

…jerome had to be told, ordered, , or was strongly suggested for him to do so( include deutero), going against his scholarly convictions.

And why did He obey, because he knew that as Christians we obey God. We obey the Church because it is being guided by God the Holy Spirit, even if we think we know better than the Church.
And we can’t know better than God’s Church.

 

[mcq72]

Get your Bible and history right.

"In short, none of the major Bible translations that emerged during the German, Swiss, or English reformations produced a Bible of simply 66 books. It is true that beyond the 66 books the other 7 (or more) were viewed as deuterocanonical, hence the term apocrypha, but nonetheless, they were still seen as having some authority.

So when and where does the Protestant Bible of 66 books show up? This practice was not standardized until 1825 when the British and Foreign Bible Society, in essence, threw down the gauntlet and said, “These 66 books and no others.” But this was not the Bible of Luther, Calvin, Knox, or even the Wesleys, who used the Authorized Version."

The Most Dangerous Thing Luther Did | Christian History | Christianity Today

 

[mcq72]

And why did He obey, because he knew that as Christians we obey God. We obey the Church because it is being guided by God the Holy Spirit, even if we think we know better than the Church.
And we can’t know better than God’s Church.

Yes, yes ,yes,

His prefaces speak for themselves. One would have to compare Luther and Jerome prefaces, and i think they were very similar in regards to Deutero books.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

would have to compare Luther and Jerome prefaces, and i think they were very similar in regards to Deutero books.

And one remained faithful to the Church and was canonized a saint.

 

[mcq72]

And one remained faithful to the Church

and that really is what matters to some, more than anything else, (and not just Church, the Roman (Western) Catholic Church)

 

[MagdalenaRita]

Yes the Roman Catholic Church

 

[De_Maria]

De_Maria:

He was going to a mountain. Mountains can be seen in the distance.
When he arrived, he was in a place surrounded by thickets.

The two men did not see him. You are adding to Scripture.

All the text says it was “in the distance.” There is no indication in the text that it says they could not see them…

There is nothing in the text which indicates that they could. Therefore, you are adding to the text in order to justify your erroneous belief.

 

[De_Maria]

Are you insisting that believing is not a doing, that faith is not a verb? …

If you are insisting that believing is a righteous work, then read this verse.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

I do believe in early father writing of Barnabus,

"To those knowledgeable of the Lord’s precepts, keep them, as many as are written. "

I’ll take that as a yes.

Correct. It does not say by keeping His commandments you will then know Him (and be saved).

It says that if you keep His Commandments, that is the proof that you know Him. Do you keep His Commandments? Yes or no.

It says if you know Him, you will keep His commandments.

On the contrary,

1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

The only way that you will know if you know Jesus Christ, is if you keep His Commandments. You are trying to twist the Scripture because the plain speaking of it contradicts your claim.

"And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
1 John 3:23 KJV
https://bible.com/bible/1/1jn.3.23.KJV

Yep. Faith and works of love. Not faith alone.

These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
1 John 5:13 KJV
https://bible.com/bible/1/1jn.5.13.KJV

He wrote a lot about keeping the Commandments. Did you skip all of those?

What do you mean by “salvific effect”? That our works somehow “contribute” to our salvation?

Yes.

But Paul expressly denies that salvation is even partly caused by our works (Eph. 2:9; 2 Tim. 1:9; Tit. 3:5)

You have to balance those against these:

Romans 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Galatians 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

Hebrews 10:36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

—we have solely been saved because of God’s salvific work in Christ.

Nope. God pours out His mercy upon those who have done His will.

Exodus 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

If you don’t do God’s will, Jesus Christ’s death on the cross is void for you.

cont’d with Johan

 

[De_Maria]

cont’d with Johan

Sorry, but I am not satisfied with that answer. Christ did not merely buy us the “opportunity” for salvation—He bought salvation for His people.

So, everyone is saved?

I cannot “remember” what I simply do not agree with. Faith is not only the starting point but also the midpoint and the endpoint of our lives in and with Christ.

Faith is the starting point. If it is not perfected in works, it is dead. That is what Scripture says.

I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. (Gal. 2:20)

I don’t see faith alone there. In fact, I see that he has given his life for Christ. That reminds of something:

Matthew 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

He also teaches that we already have been saved (Eph. 2:8–9) by grace, through faith, and without works.

That’s a description of Baptism. And it says apart from works. Not by faith alone. You need to add v. 10 to that in order to see the true context.

In another post, I likened salvation to a plant that has been planted by God. He nurtures and waters it, but we also contribute by bearing the fruit of salvation that He expects to see. One aspect of this work is to be of the same mindset as Christ (Phil. 2:5–11), showing each other respect in a state of humility. This is how we “work out” what God has already begun in us, knowing that He continues to work in us (Phil. 2:13). We have been saved in order to bear much fruit—we are not saved because we bear fruit.

Then you need to see the episode of the fig tree.

Matthew 21:19 And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away.

Which is confirmed in Matt 25:31-46 and in Titus 3:5. Only those who bear fruit, i.e. do righteous works, are saved. Those who do evil works and those who have no good works to show, are cast into hell.

John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away:

Cause and effect are very important to distinguish in this case.

Yep.

The Gospel in general flies in the face of common sense and reason (1 Cor. 1:18). Sola fide is a recognition of the fact that Christ has not merely given us an “opportunity” to be saved, but actually saved us. Soli Deo gloria.

Soli Deo gloria is a Protestant heresy. God shares His glory with those whom He loves.

Romans 8:17And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

And, God’s Truths are eminently reasonable. Faith does not oppose reason. Only the heretical doctrines of Luther and Calvin oppose reason.

 

[RaisedCatholic]

There is nothing in the text which indicates that they could. Therefore, you are adding to the text in order to justify your erroneous belief.

Demonstrating that the exact same Greek word used in Matthew 27:55 which states the women who were LOOKING ON "from a distance" SEEING Jesus on the cross, is the same Greek word used in Genesis 22 that says Abraham SAW “from a distance” where he would sacrifice Isaac, isn’t an “erroneous belief.” Since the women could see Jesus “from a distance,” it is consistent to say the men could see Abraham “from a distance.” Therefore, since you are the one making the assertion they couldn’t, then you are the one adding to the text, not me. Abraham was justified before the men, since he demonstrated his faith “by” his works, which is what James is saying in his epistle when he referenced Genesis 22.

 

[De_Maria]

Demonstrating that the exact same Greek word used in Matthew 27:55 which states the women who were LOOKING ON "from a distance" SEEING Jesus on the cross, is the same Greek word used in Genesis 22 that says Abraham SAW “from a distance” where he would sacrifice Isaac, isn’t an “erroneous belief.” Since the women could see Jesus “from a distance,” it is consistent to say the men could see Abraham “from a distance.” Therefore, since you are the one making the assertion they couldn’t, then you are the one adding to the text, not me. Abraham was justified before the men, since he demonstrated his faith “by” his works, which is what James is saying in his epistle when he referenced Genesis 22.

All you are proving is that Abraham saw the mountain he was headed towards. If your claim is that the young men saw the mountain, I agree. But they did not witness the offering nor the fire nor the appearance of the angel.

 

[mcq72]

If you are insisting that believing is a righteous work, then read this verse.

It is a righteous work of God in us. It is His will .

 

[mcq72]

Soli Deo gloria is a Protestant heresy. God shares His glory with those whom He loves.

Well we certainly dont say, “to us be the glory also”. Indeed He heeps His glory on us, and to God be the glory even more for that.

Pretty sure Calvin does not deny our glorification, nor deny the striving for it. We are talking about who should get the credit for our ability to garner, even merit, reward and glorification. Mercy and grace kind of dictate the rightness of praising and crediting God for everything good in us. Our very existence is held together by His word. Our very existence as children of God is so by His mercy and grace.

Thought these were Catholic teachings.