'Sola Caritas' Trumps 'Sola fide'

[mcq72]

All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death

I would be more interested in where they go from there. I mean I might believe that , but would say it is in His foreknowledge , not ours, and we are to preach till one’s last breath, which is enough to repent, that He still wished that none should perish, and all come to the saving knowledge of Christ, else why would "wisdom cry out from the rooftops "

 

[De_Maria]

only deny that goodness originates in me,

No one has said that goodness originates in us.

hence all glory to God

God has glorified those whom He loves. And God does not instruct us not to give glory and honor due to those who do good in His eyes.

when i do good and am rewarded for it with His glory…mercy and grace and love

then He has shared His glory with you.

You know we have espoused salvation with scriptural principles of sanctification and our glorification. Paul speaks of it, of even working for it. The judgement seat of Christ, of saints, aint for nothing…

Thank you. And when God glorifies those men, are you supposed to say, “Neh, all glory is due to God alone.”

But again, see nothing wrong with principle of glory to God alone for this. Quite reasonable as I said before, since He holds every atom of our existence together.

Yep. It was designed that way by the original Protestants. By that doctrine, they deny the authority of the Pope, the Church, the communion of Saints and many other Catholic Doctrines. Even Catholics say, “Sure, I give glory to God alone.” And when we do, Protestants say, “then why do you honor the Pope and the Saints and Mary”, etc. etc.

 

[De_Maria]

I would be more interested in where they go from there. I mean I might believe that , but would say it is in His foreknowledge , not ours, and we are to preach till one’s last breath, which is enough to repent, that He still wished that none should perish, and all come to the saving knowledge of Christ, else why would "wisdom cry out from the rooftops "

Actually, I’m always surprised when Protestants say they don’t agree with Calvin on this. Protestant doctrines logically lead to Calvin’s conclusion. The Protestant denial of free will especially locks them into the concept of double predestination.

Do you believe that men have free will?

 

[RaisedCatholic]

But they did not witness the offering nor the fire nor the appearance of the angel.

You can’t base your assumption they could not see the offering based strictly on the text, since it doesn’t specify how far the mountain was from them. Again, just as the women could SEE Jesus on the cross “from a distance,” likewise the men could SEE where Abraham was sacrificing Isaac “from a distance.” This is what James was referring to when he said “Abraham was justified by works” (James 2:24). This couldn’t refer him being justified by God by his works, since Paul stated he was justified by faith (Romans 4:2-3):

“For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.””

Paul is saying it was Abraham’s FAITH in God that made him righteous, not his works: “Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.” (Romans 4:4)

Paul is saying works is not what credits us righteousness, but is something that is expected (“due”) once a person is genuinely saved (credited righteousness) BY FAITH and not of works (Ephesians 2:8-9).

 

[De_Maria]

You can’t base your assumption they could not see the offering based strictly on the text, since it doesn’t specify how far the mountain was from them…

Since you don’t go “strictly by the text”, you have admitted that you don’t go by Scripture alone. You go by whatever you want Scripture to say and you add it to the text.

This is what James was referring to when he said “Abraham was justified by works” (James 2:24).

Nope. St. James had no idea that you would come along and twist his words to say that he was explaining about justification before men. Justification before men did not matter to St. James.

This couldn’t refer him being justified by God by his works, since Paul stated he was justified by faith (Romans 4:2-3):

“For if Abraham was justified by works , he has something to boast about, but not before God . For what does the Scripture say? “ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD , AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS .””

St. Paul was referring to the justification by water and the Spirit which occurs by the actions of God, in Baptism.

Paul is saying it was Abraham’s FAITH in God that made him righteous, not his works: “Now to the one who works , his wage is not credited as a favor , but as what is due .” (Romans 4:4)

Paul is saying works is not what credits us righteousness, but is something that is expected (“due”) once a person is genuinely saved (credited righteousness) BY FAITH and not of works (Ephesians 2:8-9).

St. Paul is saying that one who has acquired a personal righteousness by faith and works, can literally trade that in for the righteousness of God, which is by faith.

Philippians 3:7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. 8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

But St. Paul is not referring to the Lutheran idea of “faith alone”. He is referring to saving faith, which is faith working by love.

 

[RaisedCatholic]

Justification before men did not matter to St. James.

“You show me your faith without your works; I will show you my faith BY my works” (James 2:18). The “you” refers to MEN, not God.

 

[Johan]

St. Paul was referring to the justification by water and the Spirit which occurs by the actions of God, in Baptism.

Are you saying that Abraham was baptized?

 

[mcq72]

God has glorified those whom He loves. And God does not instruct us not to give glory and honor due to those who do good in His eyes.

Well it also says to glorify God when we see good works in others, that the light shine thru us and men glorify God

Thank you. And when God glorifies those men, are you supposed to say, “Neh, all glory is due to God alone.”

You could, wouldn’t be wrong.

By that doctrine, they deny the authority of the Pope, the Church, the communion of Saints

Not sure if reformers tied the two together…i mean I have never read any such argument when denying papal office…perhaps yes if self elevating is self glorifying, but I don’t think so.

Even Catholics say, “Sure, I give glory to God alone.”

Do they say that incorrectly? Is it part of catechism?

And when we do, Protestants say, “then why do you honor the Pope and the Saints and Mary”, etc. etc.

Is honor the same as glorify? I have never heard anyone say not to honor Mary or the saints, i mean we are supposed to honor our parents also.

I think we disagree on honoring certain proclaimed glorifications on Mary, and honoring papal office as is proclaimed by herself. ( as bishop of Rome, a patriarch, yes honor).

The Protestant denial of free will especially locks them into the concept of double predestination.

Do you believe that men have free will?

Yes and no. I mean what does it mean to be a slave to sin, even to Christ. I mean a slave has the ability to choose but is he free to do so? Are we inclined to do so, to leave sin?

I think Augustine also wrote that our free will is muted by our fallen nature, by our moral dilemma, our inclination to sin.

And yet scripture says , " Choose ye this day whom ye will serve."

From my understanding one must call out for help on such choosing, that God must even graciously assist/ change our will to properly decide to serve Him.

Like i quipped elsewhere, the sign on the outside of the pearly gates reads, “You have been predestined…”… go thru the gates and the other side of the sign reads, " Ye have chosen wisely…"… or some verse to that effect.

The rest is for theologians to haggle over.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

The Catholic Church teaches that we are justified by faith - believing, by baptism -cleansing and perseverance - obedience to the law of love given to us from Christ and then if needed due to mortal sin we are justified in the sacrament of confession.
Justification is not a one time event.

 

[Johan]

Justification is not a one time event.

Just one simple question: what do you mean when you say that you are justified?

 

[MagdalenaRita]

what do you mean when you say that you are justified?

I’m not going to tell you what I mean or what I think justification means because that holds no weight. Only what the Church says matters.

So, I will post what New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia defines as justification according to the council of Trent:

The Council of Trent assigns the first and most important place to faith, which is styled "the beginning, foundation and root of all justification…

The next step is a genuine sorrow for all sin with the resolution to begin a new life by receiving holy baptism and by observing the commandments of God. The process of justification is then brought to a close by the baptism of water.…

The same process of justification is repeated in those who by mortal sin have lost their baptismal innocence; with this modification, however, that the Sacrament of Penance replaces baptism.…

Only such faith as is active in charity and good works can justify man,…

It’s pretty long page but I think the passages above answer what you are asking.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08573a.htm

 

[Johan]

I’m not going to tell you what I mean or what I think justification means because that holds no weight. Only what the Church says matters.

Thanks, but I have not come here to discuss with an encyclopedia. Surely you must have an idea of what the concept of justification means since you claimed that justification is not a one-time event?

 

[MagdalenaRita]

So the encyclopedia passages I gave came from the great council of Trent.
I follow what the Church says, not my individual little mind that can and has steered me wrong.

but I will say I have faith, I was baptized, I do my best to persevere with God’s grace and utilize the sacrament of confession. That is how the Church says we are justified as I understand it.

 

[De_Maria]

De_Maria:

St. Paul was referring to the justification by water and the Spirit which occurs by the actions of God, in Baptism.

Are you saying that Abraham was baptized?

Nope. Abraham was justified. But Catholics are the children of Abraham because, we approach the fountain of grace by faith and our faith is reckoned as righteousness by God. The difference between Abraham’s justification and ours is that Abraham did not receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, which is the washing of regeneration. Therefore, he was not born again.

MagdalenaRita:

I’m not going to tell you what I mean or what I think justification means because that holds no weight. Only what the Church says matters.

Thanks, but I have not come here to discuss with an encyclopedia. Surely you must have an idea of what the concept of justification means since you claimed that justification is not a one-time event?

With all due respect to @MagdalenaRita. She has done what is right. But I think you’re asking for a more conversational style reply.

You asked, “what do you mean when you say that you are justified?”

As Magdalena said, as Catholics we seek to give the Catholic answer. I understand justification to be “reconciliation with God”. Thus, for a Catholic, it entails the “washing of sin from our souls”. This occurs in Baptism and is referred to by St. Paul as the “washing of regeneration” because it occurs in Baptism. And as the “righteousness of God”, because it removes every sin from our soul, including original sin and makes our soul even more pristine than that of a new born infant. Thus, it is also called being, “born again.”

The justification which occurs at Baptism is of a higher order than that which occurs by the Law of Moses. But only those who keep the Law of Moses will be granted the gift of the Holy Spirit and the righteousness of God, in the justification which occurs in Baptism.

I hope that helps.

 

[De_Maria]

Not sure if reformers tied the two together…i mean I have never read any such argument when denying papal office…perhaps yes if self elevating is self glorifying, but I don’t think so.

I’ve encountered it quite often. I’m very surprised that you and @TULIPed have not.

Do they say that incorrectly? Is it part of catechism?

Giving glory to God is a long standing prayer. “Glory to God in the highest and peace to His people on earth, Lord God, Heavenly King, Almighty God and Father…”

Glory to God alone is the Protestant innovation.

Is honor the same as glorify?

Yes.

The KJV translates Strong’s H3513 in the following manner: honour (34x), glorify (14x), …

I have never heard anyone say not to honor Mary or the saints, i mean we are supposed to honor our parents also.

That is shocking, since most Protestants, I’d say 99% that I’ve spoken to in my 20 years of discussing theology, have repeatedly and vehemently insisted that Mary was a mere vessel and deserved no honour or glory for giving birth to Jesus Christ. They claim, “anyone could have done it.”

I think we disagree on honoring certain proclaimed glorifications on Mary, and honoring papal office as is proclaimed by herself. ( as bishop of Rome, a patriarch, yes honor).

Regardless, you are still short sighted because the honour that we are talking about is beyond compare. The honour of being chosen to be the Mother of God and the honour of being chosen to rule in place of Jesus Christ, the King of Heaven. These are glories of the highest order, falling only beneath the glory due to God alone.

cont’d

 

[De_Maria]

cont’d

Yes and no. I mean what does it mean to be a slave to sin, even to Christ. I mean a slave has the ability to choose but is he free to do so?

Scripture says you are free to do so.

Romans 6:13 Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness.

Are we inclined to do so, to leave sin?

By the grace of God.

I think Augustine also wrote that our free will is muted by our fallen nature, by our moral dilemma, our inclination to sin.

If you mean that he denies free will, you’re wrong.

And yet scripture says , " Choose ye this day whom ye will serve."

From my understanding one must call out for help on such choosing, that God must even graciously assist/ change our will to properly decide to serve Him.

We have the free will to see that one choice is right and to ask God for the strength to choose to do what is right. God will not deny us that help.

Like i quipped elsewhere, the sign on the outside of the pearly gates reads, “You have been predestined…”… go thru the gates and the other side of the sign reads, " Ye have chosen wisely…"… or some verse to that effect.

The rest is for theologians to haggle over.

Not really. You’re troubling yourself too much. The Catholic Church is here to Teach you the Wisdom of God. It is she upon whom you should be leaning:

Proverbs 3:5Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding;

God didn’t leave us orphans.

 

[Johan]

Nope. Abraham was justified. But Catholics are the children of Abraham because, we approach the fountain of grace by faith and our faith is reckoned as righteousness by God. The difference between Abraham’s justification and ours is that Abraham did not receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, which is the washing of regeneration. Therefore, he was not born again.

Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.” (John 3:3)

So how could Abraham enter Heaven if he was not born again?

 

[mcq72]

So how could Abraham enter Heaven if he was not born again?

Right, and water baptized, as you mentioned earlier…and dont forget this one, Eucharist, for we must eat Him to have eternal life.

 

[mcq72]

The rest is for theologians to haggle over.

Not really. You’re troubling yourself too much. The Catholic Church is here to Teach you the Wisdom of God. It is she upon whom you should be leaning:

Proverbs 3:5Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding;

God didn’t leave us orphans.

And the Catholic church does not use theologians also?

Indeed we rest on all the saints and all the wisdom garnered by those who went before us.

The church, tradition, writ, councils indeed are part of this. But i would not interject the church where the underlying force of all is intended. Psalms does not say,

“Trust in the church with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding”

Though she (the church) may be a pillar of truth, even Augustine correctly says the Lord teaches me. Job also says God puts undetstanding in the heart of a man.

The Paraclete has been given like never before to that end, making this statement purely political if intended to mean a particular denomination/church even office:

" He did not leave us orphaned".

 

[mcq72]

Glory to God alone is the Protestant innovation.

Ok but you posted:

Even Catholics say, “Sure, I give glory to God alone.

Scripture says you are free to do so.

Ok, we were not once a slave to sin?

Then you quote verses that says to be holy, because we have been brought from death (slavery) to life, and by the grace of God, which I agree with.

It seems one is not so free to be holy if they are dead, and need grace to be otherwise.

Please tell me how can we be free to choose something we are dead to ?

If you mean that he (Augustine) denies free will, you’re wrong

Agree. He did not deny free will, as I posted, but he certainly qualified such free will as inoperable in realm of righteousness.

We have the free will to see that one choice is right

Correct, and that by grace, and is not in itself excercise of the will you as you properly suggest with the next step:

and to ask God for the strength to choose to do what is right. God will not deny us that help.

Now there is an excercise of “free” will, towards righteousness, but only possible by His help, His grace, as scripture and Augustine and Calvin and many other saints tell us, even testify.

So free will is a term that needs qualifying. Enslaved, dead, weak, inoperable towards righteousness are appropo.