'Sola Caritas' Trumps 'Sola fide'

[Johan]

So, everyone is saved?

You seem to assume that Christ died for all people. He is the Good Shepherd who gave His life for His sheep (John 10:11). He does not say that He lays down His life for the goats. And He did not die to bereave them of their Shepherd, but to save them.

Faith is the starting point.

Says the Bible nowhere. Faith permeates the entire Christian life.

If it is not perfected in works, it is dead. That is what Scripture says.

To be accurate, the Scriptures say that faith not possessing works (χωρὶς ἔργων, lit. “without works”) is dead. As a linguistic parallel, Paul states that sin is dead without the law (χωρὶς νόμου, Rom. 7:8). In both cases, “dead” means “inactive” (cf. Jas. 2:20). Faith without works is a faith that does not actively trust God throughout the challenges of life; it is merely a stale set of beliefs.

I don’t see faith alone there. In fact, I see that he has given his life for Christ.

Paul indeed devoted his life to Christ, but that is not what that verse in particular says. Rather, it is the other way around: Christ gave His life for Paul. It is by faith in Him who loved Paul so much that He endured an ignominious death on the cross that Paul lives. And no one has said anything of “faith alone” in this context. It is through faith alone that God saved us, but it is through faith and love that we now serve Him.

That reminds of something:

Matthew 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

We who belong to Christ have been crucified with Him (Gal. 2:19). Indeed, the world is no longer our home and it hates us for His sake. That is the cross we carry.

That’s a description of Baptism. And it says apart from works. Not by faith alone.

The verse says nothing of baptism—it’s just another example of your penchant for eisegesis. Moreover, “through faith, without works” is exactly what “faith alone” means. No works of ours have contributed to our salvation.

 

[Johan]

Soli Deo gloria is a Protestant heresy.

Really? Who else deserves the glory for our salvation?

Not to us, LORD, not to us but to your name be the glory, because of your love and faithfulness. (Ps. 115:1)

 

[TULIPed]

Soli Deo gloria is a Protestant heresy.

Are you sure about this? Who else gets glory for what Christ did for us? I’m pretty sure we’re on the same page about this one, no? (This is a sincere question - I didn’t think this was something that disagreeable - I could be wrong though - which is par for the course for me (says my spouse))

 

[De_Maria]

Well we certainly dont say, “to us be the glory also”. Indeed He heeps His glory on us, and to God be the glory even more for that.

Pretty sure Calvin does not deny our glorification, nor deny the striving for it.

Since he taught double predestination, I’m pretty sure you’re wrong.

We are talking about who should get the credit for our ability to garner, even merit, reward and glorification.

Since you have denied that we have the ability to garner, merit or be rewarded for our efforts in doing God’s will and have denied that these have any effect in our glorification, you have just made a u-turn in your arguments.

Mercy and grace kind of dictate the rightness of praising and crediting God for everything good in us.

And that is precisely what the Catholic Church does.

Our very existence is held together by His word. Our very existence as children of God is so by His mercy and grace.

Thought these were Catholic teachings.

But up to this point, you denied them. Or if you didn’t, show where you argued that we could merit anything for our good deeds.

 

[De_Maria]

You seem to assume that Christ died for all people. He is the Good Shepherd who gave His life for His sheep (John 10:11). He does not say that He lays down His life for the goats. And He did not die to bereave them of their Shepherd, but to save them.

This is what Scripture says:

2 Corinthians 5:15and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again.

Says the Bible nowhere. Faith permeates the entire Christian life.

Who denied that? But Scripture says:

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

So, faith is the starting point. And, unless you add to faith many virtues, you will not be saved:

2 Peter 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; 6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; …9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. 10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

…Faith without works is a faith that does not actively trust God throughout the challenges of life; it is merely a stale set of beliefs.

Thus, faith alone does not save.

…And no one has said anything of “faith alone” in this context. It is through faith alone that God saved us, but it is through faith and love that we now serve Him.

No mention of faith alone anywhere saving us. Scripture says that faith alone is dead. If you truly held Scripture as your highest authority, you would believe that. But you don’t.

We who belong to Christ have been crucified with Him (Gal. 2:19). Indeed, the world is no longer our home and it hates us for His sake. That is the cross we carry.

The cross you are supposed to carry are your own personal sufferings.

1 Peter 2:21For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:

The verse says nothing of baptism—it’s just another example of your penchant for eisegesis. Moreover, “through faith, without works” is exactly what “faith alone” means. No works of ours have contributed to our salvation.

Faith alone means a dead faith which does not obey the Word of God. This verse is about the confession we make when we are baptized. Because it is in Baptism that we are raised in the newness of life.

Romans 6:4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

 

[De_Maria]

It is a righteous work of God in us. It is His will .

Believing is something we must do.

Really? Who else deserves the glory for our salvation?

If God glorifies those whom He saves, who are you to say they don’t deserve the glory He gives them?

Are you sure about this?

Yep.

Who else gets glory for what Christ did for us?

No one.

I’m pretty sure we’re on the same page about this one, no?

You know as well as I do that you’re twisting the meaning of Soli Deo Gloria.

(This is a sincere question - I didn’t think this was something that disagreeable - I could be wrong though - which is par for the course for me (says my spouse))

If it is a sincere question, do you mean to tell me that you don’t realize that this doctrine is used to deny the:

1. authority of the Church.
2. communion of saints
3. authority of the Priest to forgive sins
   4…basically to oppose all Catholic Doctrines.

Basically, this battle cry of the Protestants is a denial of everything that God does through His Church. It is an excuse to make the Church expendable and exert your own personal authority over anyone whom you claim is giving themselves credit for that which God has done.

Whereas, Scripture is clear. God saves us through us. He didn’t dispense with our efforts. He works through our efforts.

Philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

2 Corinthians 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.

 

[TULIPed]

If it is a sincere question, do you mean to tell me that you don’t realize that this doctrine is used to deny the:

1. authority of the Church.
2. communion of saints
3. authority of the Priest to forgive sins
   4…basically to oppose all Catholic Doctrines.

Born and raised a reformed Christian. Never knew it was a “doctrine”. Never thought at all - and I mean ever - about #1-4 you wrote above when thinking of “Soli Deo Gloria”.

All I ever thought about was…well - God (alone). Learn something new every day I suppose.

 

[mcq72]

basically to oppose all Catholic Doctrines. (“glory to God alone” principal)

? At first I thought this is so far off, as if we deny the trinity, the Incarnation, the Ascension, Pentecost , heaven ,hell , judgement to come,etc., etc., for the western Catholic church accepts these.

But on further thought perhaps you are right in a sense. Protestants and orthodox accept these also. So one can ask what is it that makes western Catholicism different from Orthodoxy (eastern church) and Protestantism(split from western)? It is these differences (that then make one “Catholic”) that P’s and O’s object to, and of course vice versa for the big three. So I guess i do oppose all Catholic doctrine, because those doctrines make one Catholic and not Protestant. Any doctrine you have that I do not oppose is not " western Catholic" but universal/catholic to all Christians.

 

[mcq72]

Since he taught double predestination, I’m pretty sure you’re wrong.

not being a Calvin scholar have no idea what you mean, save that there are scriptures that attribute predestination to our salvation and our works…is that what you mean ? I have no problem with God’s foreknowledge of salvation and its walk from beginning to end for us.

 

[De_Maria]

? At first I thought this is so far off, as if we deny the trinity, the Incarnation, the Ascension, Pentecost , heaven ,hell , judgement to come,etc., etc., for the western Catholic church accepts these.

But on further thought perhaps you are right in a sense. Protestants and orthodox accept these also. …

Lol! Wrong. You have to leave Orthodoxy out of that response. Because Protestants use that same logic to oppose the Orthodox religion. Or, did you think that Orthodoxy came about at the Protestant Rebellion?

The Orthodox share with Catholics, the belief in the seven Sacraments, they have a valid priesthood, they pray to the Saints, they share a devotion to Mary, etc. The Orthodox do not accept the five solas.

not being a Calvin scholar have no idea what you mean,

Lol! You don’t know about the Orthodox and lump them in with Protestants. You don’t know about Calvin, but still feel certain about claims you make about him. Didn’t you say?

Pretty sure Calvin does not deny our glorification, nor deny the striving for it.

How can you be sure then, if you don’t even know that he taught double predestination. It is one of the more famous of his teachings.

save that there are scriptures that attribute predestination to our salvation and our works…is that what you mean ?

Double predestination is the idea that God created some people for damnation. Everyone’s fate is sealed from all eternity. If you are one of the sheep, you are a sheep from the time you were conceived and there is nothing you can do to be damned. No sin is too great.

If you are a goat, you can do all the good in the world, but in the end, you will be condemned.

I have no problem with God’s foreknowledge of salvation and its walk from beginning to end for us.

Nor do I. But God wants all men to be saved.

1 Timothy 2:4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Calvin denied this basic truth.

 

[mcq72]

Lol! Wrong. You have to leave Orthodoxy out of that response. Because Protestants use that same logic to oppose the Orthodox religion. Or, did you think that Orthodoxy came about at the Protestant Rebellion?

The Orthodox share with Catholics, the belief in the seven Sacraments, they have a valid priesthood, they pray to the Saints, they share a devotion to Mary, etc. The Orthodox do not accept the five solas.

I did not explain it well but I did say vice versa for us all. We all oppose each others differences. Another words I would be orthodox if i gave up our differences., etc or catholic,and vice versa

 

[De_Maria]

I did not explain it well but I did say vice versa for us all. We all oppose each others differences. Another words I would be orthodox if i gave up our differences., etc or catholic,and vice versa

You said, "Protestants and orthodox accept these also. " But the Orthodox have very little in common with Protestants.

 

[mcq72]

Nor do I. But God wants all men to be saved.

1 Timothy 2:4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Calvin denied this basic truth.

Well, let a Calvinist reply, but agree that this tenet could be portrayed to the very outer edge…yes Christ died for all and wants all to be saved, and not sure we need to discipher the effectualness of calvary
on the eternally lost.

Double predestination is the idea that God created some people for damnation. Everyone’s fate is sealed from all eternity. If you are one of the sheep, you are a sheep from the time you were conceived and there is nothing you can do to be damned. No sin is too great.

If you are a goat, you can do all the good in the world, but in the end, you will be condemned.

ok , thank you. Not sure how you got that from my reply to God glorifying us, or on the glory to God alone dialogue. But let Johan answer if that is indeed what they put forth, But i have heard what you say before…I am probably more armenian but yet I see great grains of truth in the extreme side of calvinism

 

[mcq72]

You said, "Protestants and orthodox accept these also. " But the Orthodox have very little in common with Protestants.

I meant they accept “trinity, Incarnation, Ascension , Pentecost, heaven,hell, judgement”. Not sure but “very little in common” needs quantifying.

 

[mcq72]

Lol! You don’t know about the Orthodox and lump them in with Protestants. You don’t know about Calvin, but still feel certain about claims you make about him. Didn’t you say?

Pretty sure Calvin does not deny our glorification, nor deny the striving for it.

Well does he deny such ?

 

[De_Maria]

ok , thank you. Not sure how you got that from my reply to God glorifying us,…

You brought up Calvin and it was not strictly about God glorifying us. Do I have to remind you again?

You said:

Pretty sure Calvin does not deny our glorification, nor deny the striving for it.

Do you remember now?

 

[TULIPed]

Calvin denied this basic truth.

@De_Maria - while I’m impressed with your breadth of knowledge - from Catholicism through to Calvinism - me thinks perhaps Calvin’s thoughts on this verse are a wee bit more complicated than this.

Having said that, it has been a while since I’ve been knee deep in Calvin’s Institutes though - perhaps you could point me to the section where he says this, i.e. that 1 Timothy 2:4 “isn’t true”? Many thanks.

 

[mcq72]

no but what does double predestination have to do with principle of glory to God alone …that is what I wondered.

 

[mcq72]

Since you have denied that we have the ability to garner, merit or be rewarded for our efforts in doing God’s will and have denied that these have any effect in our glorification, you have just made a u-turn in your arguments.

Never denied “the” ability, only deny that goodness originates in me, hence all glory to God when i do good and am rewarded for it with His glory…mercy and grace and love

You know we have espoused salvation with scriptural principles of sanctification and our glorification. Paul speaks of it, of even working for it. The judgement seat of Christ, of saints, aint for nothing…

But again, see nothing wrong with principle of glory to God alone for this. Quite reasonable as I said before, since He holds every atom of our existence together.

 

[De_Maria]

De_Maria:

Calvin denied this basic truth.

@De_Maria - while I’m impressed with your breadth of knowledge - from Catholicism through to Calvinism - me thinks perhaps Calvin’s thoughts on this verse are a wee bit more complicated than this.

Agreed.

Having said that, it has been a while since I’ve been knee deep in Calvin’s Institutes though - perhaps you could point me to the section where he says this, i.e. that 1 Timothy 2:4 “isn’t true”? Many thanks.

That’s not what I meant when I said that, “Calvin denies this basic truth.” I meant that his doctrine of double predestination denies that God wants all men to be saved.

Section 5 in Chapter 21 of the Institutes:

All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death.

I got that quote from ccel