'Sola Caritas' Trumps 'Sola fide'

[Michael16]

You still have it wrong. Faith is a starting point not the end all. Please: Do tell me where Jesus says ONLY believe and not do good works and you’ll be saved.

You can’t. Get over it and come home.

 

[RaisedCatholic]

**Who was there? Provide the verse. It isn’t Gen 22:3-**5
Genesis 22:3 Early the next morning Abraham got up and loaded his donkey. He took with him two of his servants and his son Isaac. When he had cut enough wood for the burnt offering, he set out for the place God had told him about. 4 On the third day Abraham looked up and saw the place in the distance. 5 He said to his servants, “Stay here with the donkey while I and the boy go over there. We will worship and then we will come back to you.”

If they had been there and seen that, I’m sure they would have tried to stop him. After all, there is no record that they were receiving messages from God.

But, feel free to provide the verse that says they saw him sacrifice Isaac.

You just provided it that the “two men” he brought with him was there. The fact the altar of sacrifice was “in the distance” does not indicate they didn’t see him “attempt” to sacrifice Isaac. Plus, Abraham did not actually “sacrifice” Isaac, and they were servant of Abraham. In that culture they wouldn’t have “tried to stop him,” especially back then when human sacrifices were common. They would not have risked disobeying their master. Regardless, they saw his “faith” which was demonstrated “by” his works (James 2:18), which is what James is saying.

 

[Michael16]

No, he proved they weren’t. The two men were told to stay with the donkeys.

Next.

 

[Michael16]

Are SERIOUSLY trying to say he didn’t try to sacrifice Isaac?!

 

[RaisedCatholic]

No, he proved they weren’t. The two men were told to stay with the donkeys.

Yes, and the passage says they saw the place in the distance, which means they were able to see Abraham attempt to sacrifice Isaac. So, they “saw” his “faith” BY his works.

Are SERIOUSLY trying to say he didn’t try to sacrifice Isaac?!

No, I was correcting @De_Maria who stated Abraham actually sacrificed Isaac. Please reread what De_Maria said (“But, feel free to provide the verse that says they saw him sacrifice Isaac”), & what I actually said. He only attempted to sacrifice Isaac, but didn’t end up doing it. He demonstrated his faith before God which He was able to see internally in his heart, & he was “justified” before the two men who saw him attempt to out of obedience before God.

 

[De_Maria]

The verse says “does not work but trusts God.”

Because it is the operation of God which is invoked in the Sacrament. A man can’t wahs his own soul.

Colossians 2:12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.

That is what we call faith alone.

And it still contradicts James 2:24. Besides, if you insist that faith which saves includes works, why do you insist upon calling it that which James condemns? In other words, why do you insist upon using a name which Scripture denounces?

Scripture says, “not by faith alone”. You say, “by faith alone”. Why?

And there is no contradiction with James 2:24. Paul rejects the idea that Abraham was justified by works before God (Rom. 4:2). So unless you think the biblical authors contradict each other, James is apparently not teaching justification by works before God. That is called harmonization.

St. Paul does not deny that works are necessary for one to be justified. He says:

Rom 2:6 God repays men for what they do.
Rom 2:13 doers of the law are just in God’s eyes.
2 Cor 5:10 we will be judged for we have done in the body
Revelation 2:23 and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

And that is technically called eisegesis. You read your preconceived ideas into the text.

Protestants commit eisegesis. Catholics can not. The New Testament was written on the basis of the already existing Traditions of Jesus Christ and is only understood correctly when read in light of them.

I simply read the text as it stands: God justifies the ungodly who do not work but trust Him. That can surely not be to twist the text.

Your understanding of those words is a twisting of the text. We know that a man is not ungodly who does not repent. And unless he repents, he won’t be saved. And repentance is a work.

So, let’s look at another Scripture:

1 Peter 4:18 And, “If it is hard for the righteous to be saved,
what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?"

Your understanding forces a contradiction upon Scripture.

cont’d

 

[De_Maria]

cont’d

But that is a different matter entirely. We are indeed to do righteous deeds, but not in order to be justified.

Yes, in order to be justified. Only those who do righteous works are justified. That is the Teaching of Scripture, throughout. We are not, in the New Testament era, justified perfectly by those righteous works. We are justified perfectly by water and Spirit.

Good works are the fruit of salvation rather than the cause thereof.

They are neither the cause nor fruit of it. They are a necessary requirement for it.

Exodus 20:6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.

Romans 2:13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

That is what we would call a hypothetical. Even if he would have done righteous works, those works would not have contributed to his salvation—nor are they a precondition for salvation.

Yes, they are a precondition to salvation. See Matt 25:31-46

Right, but the problem is that there are no doers of the Law.

Yes, there are.

Hence, we need to set our hopes on a righteousness that is “apart from the Law” (Rom. 3:21).

He is distinguishing the washing of regeneration by water and Spirit, with the imperfect justification of the Law of Moses.

Acts 13:39 Through him everyone who believes is set free from every sin, a justification you were not able to obtain under the law of Moses.

 

[De_Maria]

You just provided it that the “two men” he brought with him was there. The fact the altar of sacrifice was “in the distance” does not indicate they didn’t see him …

Sure it does. Abraham didn’t want anyone to see what he was about to do. That’s why he had them remain a long way from there in order that they could neither see, nor hear, anything that was about to happen. You are reading into the text.

Yes, and the passage says they saw the place in the distance,

He was going to a mountain. Mountains can be seen in the distance.
When he arrived, he was in a place surrounded by thickets.

which means they were able to see Abraham attempt to sacrifice Isaac. So, they “saw” his “faith” BY his works.

No matter how many times you repeat it, you’re simply reading into Scripture.

No, I was correcting @De_Maria who stated Abraham actually sacrificed Isaac. Please reread what De_Maria said (“But, feel free to provide the verse that says they saw him sacrifice Isaac”),

I didn’t use the word “actually” and if, someone had seen a man tie up a child, put the child on an altar and raise his hand to kill him, I think they would have concluded that he was sacrificing him.

And, if they had seen that, they would have tried to stop him or intervene in some way.

& what I actually said. He only attempted to sacrifice Isaac, but didn’t end up doing it. He demonstrated his faith before God which He was able to see internally in his heart, & he was “justified” before the two men who saw him attempt to out of obedience before God.

The two men did not see him. You are adding to Scripture.

 

[Michael16]

No, my hypothetical proves my point. Believe all you want. If you don t do; it’s dead and worthless.

As we’ve already demonstrated, ad nauseam; faith alone doesn’t save; no matter how you semantically cut it.

And I see you didn’t answer my challenge on what Jesus taught.

Point and match to the home team.

As for the Abraham case; none of what you’re saying makes common sense. You’re playing interpretive games with the text.

It’s clear that Abraham’s attempt to sacrifice Isaac was a work pleasing to God as well as a test of faith.

Another point to the home team.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

And Jesus said that the work that God requires is to believe in Christ, our Savior (John 6:29). We are, in fact, repaid for what Christ has done for us. He is our righteousness.

It just doesn’t stop there. We must be working out our own salvation with fear and trembling and also faith works through love.

Matthew 25, very important to walk in obedience and love.

Faith without works is dead.

You must take the whole Bible, not just snippets and only read the Scriptures under the light of the Catholic church, who alone has authority to interpret Scripture.

CCC 1989 The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion , effecting justification in accordance with Jesus’ proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."38 Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. "

CCC 2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life.

 

[Johan]

It just doesn’t stop there. We must be working out our own salvation with fear and trembling and also faith works through love.

You mean, what Christ did was not enough for our salvation? I beg to differ. He plainly states that all who believe in Him will be saved. That is the Gospel in which we can rest. What you are talking about is not the act of God saving us, i.e., bringing us from death to life, but that which is commonly called sanctification. Salvation is like a plant that God has planted (cf. the Parable of the Sower) and which should be nurtured and watered through our union with Christ. The fruit of salvation is, therefore, love and a mindset characterized by humility (Phil. 2:5-11). That is how we “work out our salvation.” Paul’s expression “with fear and trembling” is an idiom meaning approximately “in godly reverence” (cf. 2 Cor. 7:15).

Matthew 25, very important to walk in obedience and love.

Those who have been born of God will love one another (1 John 4:7) and take care of brothers and sisters in need (Matt. 25). It is in our “spiritual DNA” to do so.

Faith without works is dead.

Faith in Christ is never dead. The same God who grants us faith is also working in us “to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose” (Phil. 2:13).

You must take the whole Bible, not just snippets and only read the Scriptures under the light of the Catholic church, who alone has authority to interpret Scripture.

Says the one who just referenced snippets from Phil. 2, Matt. 25, and James 2. But I do not believe that the Catholic church has any spiritual authority and therefore I am not bound by anything it says.

 

[mcq72]

The two men did not see him. You are adding to Scripture.

If i may interject and not sure of all your dialogue concerning this, but James does seem to say the justification by works is indeed seen or discussed by men. Twice he writes, if i recall, “ye may say” or “ye see”, speaking of man.

 

[mcq72]

Rom 2:6 God repays men for what they do.

Yes, call out to his name, meet Him with broken and contrite heart, die in Him, confess Him , and you will know you are written in the book of life…He repays you with downpayment of the Spirit, even assuring us that we are His!..now.

we will be judged for we have done in the body

Well for sure if you confess him with your mouth in faith you are written in book of life

and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

And those works are in a srperate book, and not in book of life

 

[De_Maria]

If i may interject and not sure of all your dialogue concerning this, but James does seem to say the justification by works is indeed seen or discussed by men. Twice he writes, if i recall, “ye may say” or “ye see”, speaking of man.

Does he say seen exclusively by men? Let’s go over it.

12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

So first he says that men are judged by what they do and by the law.

13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

Then, he says taht the one who has no mercy will be judged without mercy. Who will judge the merciless without mercy? Man or God?

14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

Then he says, if a man has faith and no works, can that faith save him? Does he mean that “faith” is some sort of living entity which saves of its own power and authority? Or does he mean that God saves those who have faith and works?

15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

Then he uses an earthly metaphor. What good is it to wish someone well if one does not provide also for their welfare? In other words, what good is it to profess your faith to God if you don’t show God with your works?

cont’d

 

[De_Maria]

cont’d

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

So again, professing faith in God, without accompanying works, is dead.

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Now, this contrasts the man who proclaims faith but has no works to the man who has faith and works. And yes, this is showing it before man. But why? Is it to glorify man or God?

Matthew 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Not to be justified by man. But to be justified by God.

1 Thessalonians 2:4 New International Version (NIV)
4 On the contrary, we speak as those approved by God to be entrusted with the gospel. We are not trying to please people but God, who tests our hearts.

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

Even the devils know that God exists. But are they trying to please God? No.

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

This is pretty direct. He bluntly exclaims that faith without works is dead.

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Now, he bluntly states that Abraham was justified by works. Whose justification matters? Do you think that Abraham cared if his servants considered him just? Abraham was doing everything for God.

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

Again, in whom does Abraham have faith? In his servants? NO! In God. And his works made his faith perfect in that they highlighted that he would do anything for God. As God also exclaims:

Gen 22:12…Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son.”

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Who judged Abraham’s heart and imputed his faith unto him as righteousness? Was it men?

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Who said, “now I know that you fear God because you did not withhold your only son from me.”?

And finally, the Catholic Church does not exclude men from the process of justification. Men administer the Sacraments. It is to men that a believer must present himself when he wants to become Christian. At that point, he must convince the man, the priest, that he is ready to change his life and turn to God. Once he convinces the priest that he is ready to obey the will of God, then the priest will allow that man to receive Baptism, wherein God washes the man’s souls of all sins and he is reborn in the image of the Son.

 

[De_Maria]

Yes, call out to his name, meet Him with broken and contrite heart, die in Him, confess Him and you will know you are written in the book of life…

1. So, you are proposing self righteousness. You are judging yourself.
2. And you are admitting that works must be done before one is entered in the Book of Life.

He repays you with downpayment of the Spirit, even assuring us that we are His!..now.

If, we keep His commandments. Which, I believe you deny anyone can do:

1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

Well for sure if you confess him with your mouth in faith you are written in book of life

Only if you do so, in Baptism.

And those works are in a srperate book, and not in book of life

Where they are is besides the point. It’s good that you have admitted that certain works must be performed before one is written in the book of the justified (i.e. the book of life).

 

[MagdalenaRita]

The problem with everything you said, it is your own private interpretation. You may have heard from someone else but it is truth to you because it is what you believe to be true.There is some truth in it but I can just as easily find another protestant down the road who would tell me something completely different. If God is going to lead us into all Truth and He is not the author of confusion and tells us that the Church is the pillar and foundation of Truth and told us He was building a Church, we have to be able to find it. It needs to be visible and that is the Catholic Church.

But I do not believe that the Catholic church has any spiritual authority

What we believe does not change anything that is true. You can choose not to believe but it doesn’t change fact.

I am not bound by anything it says.

God did give us free will but He also warned us we would be judged by what we say and do.

Says the one who just referenced snippets from Phil. 2, Matt. 25, and James 2

Any Bible verse I quote, I am doing my best to state Catholic Church teaching. If what I say disagrees with what the Church says, and that is a possibility since I was not given any authority from God to interpret Scripture, it is I who am wrong and I who must put myself in line with God. The Church doesn’t line itself up with me or anyone else.

God bless.

 

[Johan]

What we believe does not change anything that is true. You can choose not to believe but it doesn’t change fact.

Yes, but what you consider fact, I consider opinion. You can only assert what you believe is true, not prove it. So even if your interpretation is not “private” (but rather “outsourced” to the Catholic church), it is still subjective.

God did give us free will but He also warned us we would be judged by what we say and do.

For the record, I do not believe that the will of natural man is “free.” Jesus came to make us free. In any case, I am not afraid to reject what the Catholic church teaches. I have arrived at my beliefs after years of consideration.

Any Bible verse I quote, I am doing my best to state Catholic Church teaching.

I’m sure you do; I just thought it was a bit ironic that you accused Protestants of clinging to isolated “snippets” of Scripture when you yourself referenced … snippets of Scripture.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

I just thought it was a bit ironic that you accused Protestants of clinging to isolated “snippets” of Scripture when you yourself referenced … snippets of Scripture.

Neither I nor the Church clings to snippets of Scripture. Scripture is only one part of the authority Christ gave to the Catholic Church and we use Scripture to answer protestants because that is all protestants have and the only thing protestants will listen to, except to some degree to their pastor. Catholics do and have always since Christ gave us the Church, known authority to be; Scripture, Tradition and the Magisterium.

 

[Johan]

Neither I nor the Church clings to snippets of Scripture. Scripture is only one part of the authority Christ gave to the Catholic Church and we use Scripture to answer protestants because that is all protestants have and the only thing protestants will listen to, except to some degree to their pastor. Catholics do and have always since Christ gave us the Church, known authority to be; Scripture, Tradition and the Magisterium.

So if I don’t believe that the Catholic church has the authority it claims to have, then I guess the positions are quite locked.