'Sola Caritas' Trumps 'Sola fide'

[ArchStanton]

Mt 16 is very specific with the keys [Peter]

Mt 18 does not mention the keys to the other apostles [just bind/loose]

 

[Johan]

Mt 16 is very specific with the keys [Peter]

Mt 18 does not mention the keys to the other apostles [just bind/loose]

What do you think that Peter was supposed to do with the keys?

 

[ArchStanton]

Isaiah 22:19-22

 

[Johan]

Isaiah 22:19-22

Why do you think that passage is related to Matt. 16:19? Is every passage mentioning keys related?

 

[ArchStanton]

Keys of authority…

[“tend (Gr.– poimaine —’ shepherd ’) my sheep ”.]

Lk 22:31-32 “Simon, Simon, behold Satan has demanded to sift all of you like wheat, but I have prayed that your own faith may not fail; and once you have turned back, you must strengthen your brothers .”

 

[lanman87]

I can’t say I am familiar with this movement, but the only “perversion” I can think of is a theology that pretends to be Evangelical, but effectively denies that we are justified by faith alone and no works whatsoever. I

I affirm that we are justified by faith alone with no works whatsoever.

He saves us through faith—He even saved us before we had any good works “flowing” out of ourselves to show that our faith was “real.”

I agree that we are saved before we do any good works. Good works do not save us. Nor do good works save us after we come to faith. All of salvation is wrapped up in trusting Christ alone and what he accomplished on our behalf.

But also many Jews, Muslims, Hinduists, Buddhists, Jainists, Taoists, and even atheists are inclined to help the poor, so that is hardly a distinctively Christian trait.

I didn’t say it was.

What do you mean by “natural results”? That faith itself will change us?

That God changes us through faith. We do not change ourselves. Christ works in us to change us.

I do not believe that I have been saved because my heart has been changed, but because Christ has died for my sins. He came to save me and not to merely make me “savable.”

Neither do I. I believe your heart has been changed because you have been saved.

All Christian traditions teach obedience to Christ and to do good works. The difference is the “why” we do those things. In Catholicism the reason is because if we do them we (hopefully) will gain enough merit for final salvation. If you read the great Protestant/Evangelical theologians/preachers like Calvin, Luther, Edwards, Wesley, Bunyan, and Spurgeon you will see that ultimately they all teach that works is the result of living and abiding in Christ. You will find no sense of I just believe in Jesus then live my life however I want as though Christ doesn’t matter, in any of their writings.

To put it plainly, we are obedient and do works because we have been saved not in order to be saved. But if someone refuses to be obedient and do works then the natural question is, “Have they really been saved?”

 

[mcq72]

Isaiah 22:19-22

I cant believe you use that verse. Earlier I was going to use a little levity and suggest that when Peter died and went to heaven he gave his keys back to Jesus, who says He has the key of David to the Philadelphia church in Rev.3:7 (and the keys to death and Hades Rev 1:18).

I refrained because I dont feel the “keys to the kingdom” are the same as “key of David” nor “keys of death and Hades”. Yet you use Davidic key to prove keys given to Peter.

I dont feel we are in kingdom age yet but church age, though the kingdom of heaven is indeed invading earth, but not yet fully reigning, as the Lord is still in heaven ruling from there, with the key, for now.

I believe He has given the church authority ( Mat 18:17…" take it (him) before the church"), as well as loose bind to Peter and the others, as also evidenced with all apostles loosing or retaining sin (John 20:23).

This binding is quite conditional, that is it can not go against the will of the King in heaven, holder of the key. This is just as with the Seat of Moses was, to obey the seat, save for any leaven ( bad doctrine), or hypocrisy.

The church temporarily erring (bad doctrine) can not mean that Hades has prevailed, for Jesus has that key.

One can lose a battle but not the war. There is always another day to gain back that which was lost. Some call it reform, and at times revival, Jesus opening and closing doors as He sees fit.

 

[dopeyMS]

Justification by faith alone is a protestant fallacy. God has always required his people to work their way to heaven with fear and trembling. At the beginning of our walk with Christ we think it is all up to us and at the end we realize that Christ is in control of everything good and bad. Martin Luther worked his way to heaven for the better part of his Christian experience and protestants can’t even admit this which is so sad. Martin Luther started out Catholic and was trained as a Catholic and educated as a Catholic and received everything he had as a Catholic and then he bit the hand that fed him.

 

[dopeyMS]

All Christian traditions teach obedience to Christ and to do good works. The difference is the “why” we do those things. In Catholicism the reason is because if we do them we (hopefully) will gain enough merit for final salvation. If you read the great Protestant/Evangelical theologians/preachers like Calvin, Luther, Edwards, Wesley, Bunyan, and Spurgeon you will see that ultimately they all teach that works is the result of living and abiding in Christ. You will find no sense of I just believe in Jesus then live my life however I want as though Christ doesn’t matter, in any of their writings.

To put it plainly, we are obedient and do works because we have been saved not in order to be saved. But if someone refuses to be obedient and do works then the natural question is, “Have they really been saved?”

False. Catholics teach that good works are necessary because Christ taught that good works were necessary and Paul taught that good works are necessary and Peter taught that good works are necessary and John taught that good works are necessary. Same old, same old…

Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle. Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace, Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work. 2Thes 2:15-17

 

[ArchStanton]

I was showing how 'keys’ represent authority. I have come across many protestants who deny that the keys given to Peter represent authority [Mt 16:15-20; Isaiah 22:19-22]… bind/loose - open/shut.

When you said ‘the church temporarily erring…’ I thought of several verses.

1 Tim 3:15 But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God , which is THE CHURCH of the living God, the PILLAR AND FOUNDATION OF TRUTH

Eph 3:10 so that the manifold WISDOM of God might now be made known THROUGH the CHURCH to the principalities and authorities in the heavens.

Jn 14:16-17 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate to be with you ALWAYS, the SPIRIT OF TRUTH , which the world cannot accept , because it neither sees nor knows it. But you know it, because it remains with you , and will be in you.

Jn 16:13 But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will GUIDE YOU to ALL TRUTH. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to you the things that are coming.

Blessings!

 

[mcq72]

I was showing how ’ keys’ represent authority . I have come across many protestants who deny that the keys given to Peter represent authority [ Mt 16:15-20; Isaiah 22:19-22 ]… bind/loose - open/shut.

Yes, perhaps some P’s deny authoriy seen here, just as some deny that it was also given to the other apostles, or others confuse power/ graces with rank ( Peter being higher than other apostles).

Indeed Peter uses the keys first at preaching, even to Gentiles, but do not see him binding, loosing other apostles, except in unison (appointing Judas replacement, and Acts 15 council). He certainly bound and loosed Ananias though.

One would also err to think the church did not also have authority. I say that because a foundation must be laid scripturally and in history (Acts) to best determine if indeed an office was created with succession in mind, at the expense of the church council and appointed presbyters/bishops.

When you said ‘the church temporarily erring …’ I thought of several verses.

Yes, thank you. Plenty of verses to show His guidance and Shepherding, and who would deny His perfection.

Our perfection and reception of such leading is conditional upon our obedience, maturity, abiding in Christ, dependence upon the Spirit etc., perseverance. That is why we have many scriptural admonitions in those regards. Otherwise reminds me of “once saved always saved” , but applied here to be, " once right always right" or unconditional, infallible reception, which I disagree with.

Revelation church letters show a true reality of such conditional reception of perfect Truth. Nothing new here with such report cards even mostly reformational letters. Nothing new with God sending reformers as needed. Nothing new with rebels either. Nothing new with sometimes seeing sent reformers as rebels, even as Christ was.

Irregardless, His truth will forever march on, even thru the church

 

[ArchStanton]

Just for clarification…do you agree that Peter was the leader of the apostles [personally given the keys of authority by Christ]?, that Peter decided a new Bishop was to take Judas’ place?

Thank you!

 

[mcq72]

Just for clarification…do you agree that Peter was the leader of the apostles [personally given the keys of authority by Christ]?, that Peter decided a new Bishop was to take Judas’ place?

Thank you!

Yes Peter was leader of the pack. As before, qualified that with “first amongst equals”. Yes, Jesus personally singles our Peter as leader, shepherd, with keys etc… and he acted as such in presenting need before the 120 disciples (in council/ church fashion?), with scriptural backing, and much prayer, and casting lots for Judas replacement, and as I noted earlier.

 

[lanman87]

False. Catholics teach that good works are necessary because Christ taught that good works were necessary and Paul taught that good works are necessary and Peter taught that good works are necessary and John taught that good works are necessary. Same old, same old…

Either way, Catholics believe that works of charity, in addition to faith, is how we are saved.

The vast majority of non-Catholic Christians believe that we are saved by Grace through Faith and that works of Charity are the result of that Salvation, not the cause (even in part) of our salvation.

 

[dopeyMS]

Either way, Catholics believe that works of charity, in addition to faith, is how we are saved.

The vast majority of non-Catholic Christians believe that we are saved by Grace through Faith and that works of Charity are the result of that Salvation, not the cause (even in part) of our salvation.

This is correct, works of charity and faith are both required to be saved.

Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone…For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. (Jas 2:17,26)

Justification by faith alone is the biggest lie ever told.

 

[mcq72]

Justification by faith alone is the biggest lie ever told.

Being more charitable, I shall only ask of the counterpart:
Justification by faith and works is the biggest lie ever told ?

Self justification is so dangerous that it was the only fault of the otherwise perfect and upright Job. Once he was purged of it he had a more perfect and deeper appreciation and union with God.

 

[dopeyMS]

Being more charitable, I shall only ask of the counterpart:
Justification by faith and works is the biggest lie ever told ?

Self justification is so dangerous that it was the only fault of the otherwise perfect and upright Job. Once he was purged of it he had a more perfect and deeper appreciation and union with God.

Catholic and Orthodox Christians look at everything the bible has to say and then they look at everything the saints and Church Fathers had to say and some even look at what pagan philosophers and pagan emperors had to say.

Protestants look at what Paul had to say and ignore everything else like the proverbial ostrich who sticks his head in the sand.

 

[mcq72]

Protestants look at what Paul had to say and ignore everything else like the proverbial ostrich who sticks his head in the sand.

No one on either side of the issue stick their head in the sand, including here on this thread.

If anything we could charge each other with finding what we seek.

We all take scripture in its entirety on this issue and come to different conclusions. Imagine that! As if that isnt from the beginning, even Cain and Abel.

PS…no one here has dodged James, just as no one has dodged Paul.

 

[dopeyMS]

No one on either side of the issue stick their head in the sand, including here on this thread.

If anything we could charge each other with finding what we seek.

We all take scripture in its entirety on this issue and come to different conclusions. Imagine that! As if that isnt from the beginning, even Cain and Abel.

Paul never said that justification comes by faith alone, Luther did.

James said point blank that justification does not come by faith alone.

It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure it out just an open mind and a desire for truth.

 

[mcq72]

Paul never said that justification comes by faith alone, Luther did.

Well pretty close with not by works of the law or works of righteousness are we justified. He might not say “faith alone” but he certainly excludes works in said scriptures. If not “alone” what do you think he had in mind?