'Sola Caritas' Trumps 'Sola fide'

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Johan said:
But ArchStanton insinuated that they will not have life unless they participated in the Eucharist.
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No, he did not. You again are reading more into what was said.

Are you denying that Jesus said those words? Do you not believe in the Scripture?
I am sure you realize that those you mentioned are OT saints and they could not have participated in the Eucharist as Christ had not died and rose yet. He had not sent His apostles out yet. That is why I suggested you read Hebrews 11.It is a very good chapter in the Bible. They were awaiting the promise of the one they knew was coming, the promise that went back to Genesis 3 and they obeyed what God had given them at the time.
Johan said:
I, of course, do not ignore it. I simply think that Jesus also in this chapter was speaking figuratively.
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I am not sure about that ignoring part.

If He was speaking figuratively why did He not call those walking away from eating His body and blood to come back. He let them go. Why didn’t He say, hey you all do not understand what I am saying. I just mean figuratively. You misunderstood. He even asked those left if they wanted to leave also. He didn’t turn to those left and say, do you understand what I am saying because He was very clear. So you see, people have rejected the Eucharist from the first moment Christ spoke of it.
 
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ArchStanton said:
just like the thief on the cross Johan [other ways]…Christ knows your heart and if you ‘heard Christ’ [Jn 6] and walked away [Jn 6:66], you would have to answer for that.
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So you think we are saved because what is in our heart, rather than by grace because He simply loves us and wants to save us?
 
no Johan, Christ knows your ‘thoughts/heart’ and if you deny what He says, that is different than not knowing what Christ says. Just like ‘Salvation outside the church’.
 
MagdalenaRita said:
No, he did not. You again are reading more into what was said.
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I am simply following his logic.
  1. ArchStanton thinks that Jesus was talking about the Eucharist when He said: “unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you”.
  2. Enoch, Noah, Abraham, etc did not participate in the Eucharist.
  3. The logical conclusion must be that they had no life in them.
MagdalenaRita said:
Are you denying that Jesus said those words? Do you not believe in the Scripture?
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Oh, please stop with that nonsense. You know full well that it is possible to believe what He said while thinking that He was speaking figuratively. He often spoke figuratively—so often, in fact, that His disciples had to remark:

“Now you are speaking clearly and without figures of speech.” (John 16:29)
MagdalenaRita said:
If He was speaking figuratively why did He not call those walking away from eating His body and blood to come back. He let them go.
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Since they did not believe, it follows that they did not belong to His sheep (cf. John 10:26). So why should He try to stop them from walking away?
 
ArchStanton said:
no Johan, Christ knows your ‘thoughts/heart’ and if you deny what He says, that is different than not knowing what Christ says. Just like ‘Salvation outside the church’.
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But I do not deny what He said, so what is the problem?
 
ArchStanton said:
Amen, amen , I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you DO NOT HAVE LIFE within you .
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yahoo ! somebody taking things literally and sticking to their guns, not saying it’s above ones pay grade to say who can go to heaven, unless you also aren’t dogmatic about this.
 
Johan said:
I am simply following his logic.
  1. ArchStanton thinks that Jesus was talking about the Eucharist when He said: “unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you”.
  2. Enoch, Noah, Abraham, etc did not participate in the Eucharist.
  3. The logical conclusion must be that they had no life in them.
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Two things, one I already answered why your logic is wrong. Second, this is Church teaching. We do not follow what we think is true but the truth that has been given to the Church by Divine Revelation. ArchStanton is stating not what he thinks but what the Church tells us and what Scripture says and Jesus said we are to eat His flesh and drink His blood in order to have life in us.
Johan said:
Oh, please stop with that nonsense. You know full well that it is possible to believe what He said while thinking that He was speaking figuratively. He often spoke figuratively—so often, in fact, that His disciples had to remark:
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Okay, so you have asked a lot of questions and made a lot of insinuations into what people have said, some very sarcastically, but what I said bothers you. ??
Johan said:
Since they did not believe, it follows that they did not belong to His sheep
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Correct. They did not believe the words He was saying.
 
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What should Christ have said instead of " For MY FLESH IS TRUE FOOD , and my blood is true drink" for you to believe in the Eucharist? [What words would have made you believe?]
 
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MagdalenaRita said:
Okay, so you have asked a lot of questions and made a lot of insinuations into what people have said, some very sarcastically, but what I said bothers you. ??
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Whenever I use sarcasm, the underlying message is that I think that the one I’m responding to is saying something absurd, illogical, and/or unbiblical. So if you prefer unveiled language, fine with me. But you seem to think it is OK to claim that I do not believe what Jesus said, just because I interpret His words differently compared to you. Double standard, no?
MagdalenaRita said:
Correct. They did not believe the words He was saying.
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And that showed that they did not belong to His sheep. So there was no reason to call them back for “clarification”.

The disciples came to him and asked, “Why do you speak to the people in parables?” He replied, “Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them.” (Matt. 13:10–11)
 
Johan said:
So there was no reason to call them back for “clarification”.
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There is also, though, no where that He clarified what He was saying with those who were there. They understood. They knew He was speaking literally. There is no follow up explanation as there is with many other of His parables.
 
ArchStanton said:
What should Christ have said instead of " For MY FLESH IS TRUE FOOD , and my blood is true drink" for you to believe in the Eucharist? [What words would have made you believe?]
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For a starter, that He would have stated that He was talking about the Eucharist. There is no mention of the Lord’s Supper in John, chapter 6.
 
MagdalenaRita said:
There is also, though, no where that He clarified what He was saying with those who were there. They understood. They knew He was speaking literally.
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This is purely conjectural, as you surely realize. You cannot claim to know what they understood and how they understood it.
MagdalenaRita said:
There is no follow up explanation as there is with many other of His parables.
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There is no follow up explanation of Him saying that He is the true vine either.
 
Johan said:
You cannot claim to know what they understood and how they understood it.
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No but I can see that they believed what He was saying by their staying by His side and I can see by the rest of the Scriptures what they understood Him to say.

1 Corinthians 10 and 11 in which Paul states:

The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not a particiaption in the body of Christ

“For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, ‘This is my body which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.’ In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, ‘This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.’ For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes. Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord.”

and the early Christians who learned from the apostles, undestood it in the same way. Here are a couple:

“Consider how contrary to the mind of God are the heterodox in regard to the grace of God which has come to us. They have no regard for charity, none for the widow, the orphan, the oppressed, none for the man in prison, the hungry or the thirsty. They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not admit that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, the flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in His graciousness, raised from the dead.” St. Ignatius of Antioch

For we do not receive these things as common bread or common drink; but as Jesus Christ our Savior being incarnate by God’s Word took flesh and blood for our salvation, so also we have been taught that the food consecrated by the Word of prayer which comes from him, from which our flesh and blood are nourished by transformation, is the flesh and blood of that incarnate Jesus." St. Justin Martyr
 
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Foreshadowing has to be spelled out entirely?

and saying “something absurd, illogical, and/or unbiblical…” Does that go for Aquinas, Polycarp, Clement, Ignatius, Augustine, Jerome, Irenaeus, Cyprian, Ambrose, Cyril, etc?
 
ArchStanton said:
and that brings us back to ‘obey’… if you are wrong in your personal interpretation of what Christ says in Jn 6, are you obeying Him?
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even more, are we loving Him, believing Him ?..and yet let everyone be fully convinced in their reasoning, and to go against ones convictions and conscience would be a sin, even per CC
 
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I am quoting Christ…the question I have is why wouldn’t you want ‘life within you’?
 
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