'Sola Caritas' Trumps 'Sola fide'

[MagdalenaRita]

The claim was made in this very thread that God may empower us to keep His commandments. So the question that immediately presents itself is why a person with that belief has not overcome his/her sins and stopped sinning altogether.

That has already been answsered by the Bible verses I and others have given you. We are growing. We are being perfected. We are not in one moment made perfect. God gives us His grace daily so that we can be more than conquerers.

That you will one day be able to appear in this thread and claim “I am no longer sinning”?

sarcasm. hmm.

Are we not already overcomers in Christ?

We sure are and we are daily overcomers if we cooperate with God’s grace.

Has He not already saved you from sin?

Yes, we are saved at baptism, we are being saved by His grace as we persevere in His will and accept that grace, and we hope to be saved, die in a state of grace. A one time being saved is not Biblical.

I am just pointing out the discrepancy between theory and practice. Catholics claim that God will empower us to overcome sin, yet no one can make the claim not to be a sinner. So it seems that everyone has postponed the moment they are supposed to become empowered and stop sinning.

There is no discrepancy… There is no moment as a human being that we stop sinning and no one here has said there is.

I take it you do not believe in free will. God gives us His grace every day, as Scripture says His mercies are new every morning but we have to make that daily choice to choose God but no one, not even you, lives this life without sin.

In all charity, your questions are all over the place without any focus. I feel like I am going around in circles and keep answering the same thing and then the response changes. I kind of feel as though I am speaking to an atheist and I am defending Christianity. I give Bible verses but they do not seem to matter in responding to your questions, maybe because they are not the right Bible verses.

Is this the question you have been hinting at? Do Catholics believe they are saved and know that when they die they will go to heaven with an assurance of once saved, always saved?

The answer is no and many have tried to explain that to you and given many Bible verses to explain why and many protestants do not believe in once saved always saved either.

The wages of sin is death (Rom. 6:23).

Yes that is true.

Nothing undoes what Christ did but we have free will to reject what Christ did.

Johan:

So by “rejecting” what Christ did (however we may do that), we can undo what He accomplished?

This is what I mean, your asking a question that doesn’t go with the statement I gave. Read what I said and then read your question.

 

[fhansen]

And the word of God is very clear: only obedience counts as obedience. Doing “one’s best”, but still failing to keep the commandments, does not count as obedience. Anything to the contrary is “easy obeyism” and self-delusion.

I didn’t say we don’t need to keep the commandments. But we’re still not under the law now. We’re to obey by the Spirit, which means to fulfill the law by love which in turn fulfills it by its very nature. I mean if Jesus (and Paul) made one thing clear it’s that even if we fulfilled the law perfectly we still haven’t obeyed at all until and unless we’re changed interiorly, and obey from a renewed and pure heart. God continues to work with fallen man; here we’ll continue to struggle against the tendency to sin, and there are sins that lead to death by their nature-and this will always be the case. For Catholics, however, nothing short of perfection allows admittance into heaven, in accord with Scripture-far from “easy-obeyism”, which Catholics, if anyone, have hardly been accused of in the past. That perfection is obtained to the extent that we love God with our whole heart, soul, mind, and strength and our neighbor as ourselves-a very tall order but one that can and will be filled prior to heaven-even if further purification is mercifully finished after death. Nothing is impossible with God. Meanwhile God works in and with a messy world. But a believer can always fall away; they can lose their justified state by acting unjustly, and then can remain in that state or, alternatively, repent. Branches grafted in can be cut off in any case.

No, but the cross of Christ was.

For whom? Do we need to do anything, any response at all?

 

[fhansen]

He saved us in our ungodliness and brought us from death to life, from condemnation to justification. So you believe that certain sins may undo what Christ accomplished on the cross? Because He bore our sins in His body on the cross, no?

Sure, because we can spit in His face if we want, rejecting the heavenly gift we’ve tasted.

I think this expression says more about the objector than about those who adhere to sola fide. It sounds like if the objectors would be fully unleashed, they would go on sinning as if there were no tomorrow. Sola fide is not a “license to sin” any more than your sacrament of confession is.

Catholic teaching says that sin is a barrier between ourselves and God-but now we’re forgiven, made new creations, and have the means to overcome future sin-we can “go, and sin no more.” Sola Fide removes the obligation for man to act righteously in order to be saved (depending on the individual adherent of Sola Fide, of course, since, as we’ve witnessed on this thread, the doctrine may easily be understood differently going by another sola as it were: Sola Scriptura). But James means to ensure that we don’t make that mistake; faith and works are part of a complete, inseparable, package. Paul was battling legalism, not the works and Spirit-compelled righteousness born from grace that we’re expected to work out our salvation with. We struggle and strive and hopefully persevere, as Paul did.

I find this perspective interesting. You do not seem to have an issue with the notion of eternal torment per se , but only the kind that involves predestination. By the way, do you believe that God wants to harden some people? Because that is a biblical teaching.

I didn’t comment on a preference for or against eternal torment, only that, if a person chooses to remain in rebellion against God the consequence would be their own choice. If, on the other hand, God simply created beings for nothing but eternal torment, without regard to their wills, He wouldn’t be much of a God. Predestination, as the Church teaches, still takes into account the will of man.

 

[mcq72]

That perfection is obtained to the extent that we love God with our whole heart, soul, mind, and strength and our neighbor as ourselves-a very tall order but one that can and will be filled prior to heaven-even if further purification is mercifully finished after death. Nothing is impossible with God

Yikes!..".perfection is obtained to the extent that we" do and are…or complete penance or cleansing punishment (purgatory).

Indeed we shall be made to be like Him, the chaff being burned off.

But seems like such a gracious gift is much quid pro quo or cooperation,
and that just a bit to much on the free will effort side. So much theological technical stuff trying to cover all the bases between works and faith and will etc, that Calvary’s superlativeness seems dimmed…and I can see why some find sweet repose in the solas.

 

[fhansen]

Yikes!..".perfection is obtained to the extent that we" do and are…or complete penance or cleansing punishment (purgatory).

Indeed we shall be made to be like Him, the chaff being burned off.

But seems like such a gracious gift is much quid pro quo or cooperation,
and that just a bit to much on the free will effort side. So much theological technical stuff trying to cover all the bases between works and faith and will etc, that Calvary’s superlativeness seems dimmed…and I can see why some find sweet repose in the solas.

It seems that God wants more for us than some seem to be aware of-much more. Maybe we just want the easy road IDK. But the true way certainly isn’t technical or complicated. As I said it can all be summed up with this simple teaching,
"At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love."

There’s yer marching orders, son.

 

[lagerald24]

The wages of sin is death (Rom. 6:23). Not just one particular sin, but sin .

That is true. All our sins have to be atoned for and forgiven. However, this fact does not entail a rejection of the mortal/venial sin reality as we read in John’s first epistle.

1st John 5:16-17, “If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should pray about that. All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death.”

 

[mcq72]

Sola Fide removes the obligation for man to act righteously in order to be saved

Thank God for that .

“Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,”

It removes any self righteousness from our otherwise righteous acts done in Christ.

Paul was battling legalism,

So were the reformers.

We struggle

It is to be discerned if the struggling is due to trying to be a Christian in the flesh, or because indeed one is not even been born again but thinks he is, is told he is from legalistic, institutional sense

…otherwise totally agree of the battle between flesh and spirit, the old man vs. the new man, of walking in His victory and provisions in the Spiritno muh

 

[mcq72]

It seems that God wants more for us than some seem to be aware of- much more. Maybe we just want the easy road IDK. But the true way certainly isn’t technical or complicated. As I said it can all be summed up with this simple teaching,
"At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love."

Fair enough thank you.

Lol, now I must get technical, and would have given you a heart/ thumbs up but for this. That indeed we will be judged on love, but only when faith and hope are no longer necesary, when we are already in heaven, and at the judgement seat of Christ, at the end of time.

Again, it is one thing to get into heaven, because you are a Christian, known by the Shepherd. Quite another thing to later be judged on what kind of Christian you were as related to your works in Christ, and that they were done in love, in truth and Spirit.

But yes,a Christian walk cant go wrong being and acting in His love shed abroad in our hearts…and thank you, that is simply put.

 

[Johan]

That is true. All our sins have to be atoned for and forgiven.

That is correct, but that was not the reason why I quoted Rom. 6:23. Paul plainly states that the wages of sin (rather than certain sins) is death. Therefore, the distinction between “mortal” and “venial” sins is nonsensical.

The one who sins is the one who will die. (Eze. 18:20)

Again, no distinction is made between “mortal” and “non-mortal” sins. If you sin, you will die.

However, this fact does not entail a rejection of the mortal/venial sin reality as we read in John’s first epistle.

1st John 5:16-17, “If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should pray about that. All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death.”

1. John does not speak of a category of mortal sins, but of one sin (“a sin”) that is said to lead to death.
2. According to John, we should pray for those who have committed sins that are supposed to be of the “venial,” i.e., “less severe,” kind—so that “God will give them life.” This sounds like a description of what you call “mortal” sins.
3. We are not excepted to pray for those who have committed the “sin that leads to death.” That sounds like the unforgivable sin, rather than what you call “mortal” sin.

 

[Johan]

For Catholics, however, nothing short of perfection allows admittance into heaven, in accord with Scripture-far from “easy-obeyism”, which Catholics, if anyone, have hardly been accused of in the past.

So the cross of Christ did not by itself provide you with this “admittance into heaven”—you have to become a perfect human being as well? It seems to me that the cross of Christ plays a very subdued and unclear role in Catholic soteriology. So if you were to depart from this world in a short while, do you think you would be “ready” to meet God? Are you perfect? Or is it just a “perhaps” to the former question?

For whom? Do we need to do anything, any response at all?

Pardon my sarcastic tone, but have you heard of faith? That is how we unworthy individuals “respond” to the amazing grace of God.

Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?” Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.” (John 6:28–29)

 

[Johan]

As I said it can all be summed up with this simple teaching,
"At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love."

Or we could heed the teaching of Christ.

Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. (John 5:24)

 

[ArchStanton]

Indeed, the teaching of Christ!

“Amen, amen , I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you DO NOT HAVE LIFE within you .

 

[Johan]

Indeed, the teaching of Christ!

“Amen, amen , I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you DO NOT HAVE LIFE within you .

Aha, so we will not see Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Moses, or Elijah in Heaven? Or perhaps they were actually eating His flesh and drinking His blood by believing in the Promise.

Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty.” (John 6:35)

 

[ArchStanton]

and that brings us back to ‘obey’… if you are wrong in your personal interpretation of what Christ says in Jn 6, are you obeying Him?

For MY FLESH IS TRUE FOOD , and my blood is true drink.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

Aha, so we will not see Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Moses, or Elijah in Heaven?

Yes we will see them in heaven.

Or perhaps they were actually eating His flesh and drinking His blood by believing in the Promise.

In a way yes. No one is denying you are not supposed to believe in God and His promises. We just do not “only” believe. They all had to do what God instructed them to do, so to receive that promise. If you read Hebrews 11, you will see that each one had faith and obeyed.

Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty.” (John 6:35)

That Bible verse is certainly true, but are you just going to ignore all the rest of the chapter and this part: So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; 54 he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him.

Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. (John 5:24)

[/quote]

That verse is true as it is the inerrant Word of God but He doesn’t say only believe and it isn’t the only verse in the Bible. He also so said:

The good man out of his good treasure brings forth good, and the evil man out of his evil treasure brings forth evil. 36 I tell you, on the day of judgment men will render account for every careless word they utter; 37 for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.” Matthew 12

 

[Johan]

and that brings us back to ‘obey’… if you are wrong in your personal interpretation of what Christ says in Jn 6, are you obeying Him?

For MY FLESH IS TRUE FOOD , and my blood is true drink.

I do not deal with ifs and buts. He bore our sins in His body on the cross (1 Pet. 2:24). He purchased us with His blood (1 Pet. 1:19). Unlike Catholicism, I believe that His cross is truly salvific. But you did not answer my question: will we see Enoch, Noah, etc in Heaven? They did not participate in the Eucharist.

 

[ArchStanton]

and they are from the OT Johan… in answer to your question, I ‘hope’ to see them in Heaven, as I am a work in progress

 

[Johan]

Yes we will see them in heaven.

But ArchStanton insinuated that they will not have life unless they participated in the Eucharist.

That Bible verse is certainly true, but are you just going to ignore all the rest of the chapter and this part: So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; 54 he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him.

I, of course, do not ignore it. I simply think that Jesus also in this chapter was speaking figuratively. He told His disciples that the work that God requires is to believe in Him. Did He somehow forget the Eucharist? It is also not His blood per se that saves us. He saved us by letting His blood be shed, to atone for our sins.

 

[Johan]

and they are from the OT Johan… in answer to your question, I ‘hope’ to see them in Heaven, as I am a work in progress

So God saves people in different ways? I think not. So if someone of Jesus’ listeners in John 6 would have died soon after hearing His speech, before being able to participate in any Eucharist—would that person have perished even if (s)he believed in Christ?

 

[ArchStanton]

just like the thief on the cross Johan [other ways]…Christ knows your heart and if you ‘heard Christ’ [Jn 6] and walked away [Jn 6:66], you would have to answer for that.