'Sola Caritas' Trumps 'Sola fide'

[MagdalenaRita]

Thanks @De_Maria. I like that. It is a very good explanation.

 

[De_Maria]

TULIPed:

I was very un-righteous and un-obedient before my baptism. (I was 4 months old I think.)

The Catholic Teaching which I speak of, is for adults.

TRENT VI
CHAPTER V
THE NECESSITY OF PREPARATION FOR JUSTIFICATION IN ADULTS, AND WHENCE IT PROCEEDS

Four month olds are exempt from that preparation.

Have you ever heard of RCIA? (The Rite of Christian Initiation for Adults)

And you probably were a stinker!

At four months? I don’t guess you’ve ever had children. At four months, most children can only eat and sleep.

And I was twice then, again at 21.

Of course a few might say your parents and godparents and parish/ church were righteous and obedient for you.

That’s the ticket. But for you, at 21, you would have had to undergo RCIA in order to be baptized a Catholic. Even if your parents were Catholic. Since at that point, you’re an adult and must prove that you understand what you’re getting involved with.

So, are you saying, that at 21, if you were an unrepentant, drug addicted, drunkard, you would have been allowed to receive Baptism in your church? You would not have been expected to provide some proof of your faith?

 

[fhansen]

I shake my head at the readiness among certain Catholics to define under which circumstances they think God would be a “tyrant,” “evil,” “sadist,” “unjust,” etc. If God’s salvific plan does not fit your expectations, then He is a “fool”? The arrogance contained in such a statement is astounding. Paul’s words “who are you, a human being, to talk back to God” (Rom. 9:20) come to my mind.

That’s not arrogance you’re hearing. Jesus came to reveal God and while we can never come close to comprehending Him in His totality, we still can know Him. And the God that strictly determines man’s choices regarding salvation would be an evil clown, worse than satan, not the God revealed by Jesus, not a god worth following. And everyone likes to quote Rom 9:20 when someone disagrees with their concept of God BTW.

Let me tell you right away that you will never be inherently perfect in this life by your “struggle” (whatever you mean by that). Christ has already perfected us by His sacrifice (Heb. 10:14).
He gave us this life in a world characterized by sin, suffering, and death for us to fully understand His grace, which He bestows on His sinful people. He tells us, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness” (2 Cor. 12:9). He is strong when we are weak and imperfect. If He would have directly placed us in Heaven as transformed and perfect people, then that knowledge would never have been obtained.

And what knowledge?-that God created a bunch of sinners and decided to save some of them anyway? And now we know? Wow. Either way, yes, it’s possible to be perfected in this life, as one is willing and remains in communion with God, giving up all this life offers in order to serve Him as part of that desire. As the Church teaches, God doesn’t command what is impossible for us to do even as the Holy Spirit is essential in helping accomplish it. But the Church also teaches that few will go to that extent and so most won’t be perfected before death. So God isn’t demanding that we totally overcome the struggle, to necessarily completely win the battle against sin even if that’s the ideal. But He’s looking for us to strive towards that end. He’s looking for us to be winning that battle, to invest our talents and reap an increase, to grow in ownership of the grace and righteousness that He grants to those who hunger and thirst for it, to refrain from sin so grave that it constitutes a complete turning away from love of God and/or neighbor, to feed the hungry and clothe the naked and do the works He’s prepared for us to do, etc.

 

[fhansen]

Yes, as Scripture tells us, in straight-forward language: sinners don’t enter heaven. Why should they? God has now empowered us to overcome the sin that separates us from Him by its nature. Should we mock Him by sinning? In any case man remains obligated to righteousness, as always. That didn’t change with the New Covenant. Again, God did not make man to be a sinner; it’s not that man cannot be righteous, as he was created to be; rather it’s that man cannot be righteous apart from God. Faith establishes a relationship or union with God, which is the right and just order of things for man.

The Gospel is not merely about forgiveness (as if that would be something insignificant as such)—it is about Christ, the Son of God, having suffered a painful and ignominious death for our salvation, and having been raised to the glory that He now shares with His Father. And you seem to think that this by itself is not “enough”?!

I never even hinted that forgiveness is insignificant-only that God has more in store for us than that. And to be honest the rest of your statement comes across as a sort of exercise in priggish ignorance. Jesus died not only so we may be forgiven, but so that we may become like Him. God’s plan isn’t to merely save a few otherwise worthless wretches and condemn the rest but to elevate His beloved creation to the purpose and potential He created us for, as we’re willing because the will of man is the prize ever since Eden. Otherwise none of the drama that’s unfolded in human history from Eden on, with God patiently working within that history, had any purpose.

So instead of putting your faith in the One who has saved you, you are intent on working yourself into Heaven. If that would not be the goal of your life, then God would be a “fool” and even “evil.” Good luck

Only with His help-then I don’t need luck; I just need to remain in Him and cooperate by doing His will. He’s a wise and good God in that case. You should contemplate more on Rom 9:20. In the true understanding of the faith we cannot be saved without Him, but we can still refuse to be saved by Him. or walk away again at any time later on.

I’d seriously consider these words that I’ll repeat again,
"At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love."
This love is the change Jesus came to accomplish in us. It fulfills the Decalogue and the Greatest Commandments which virtually define righteousness for man. It reflects the very image of God we’re to be transformed into. Love is the motivation for the works done “for the least of these” in Matt 25 or those prepared in advance for us to do in Eph 2. It’s what faith is meant to lead to, as faith, in response to grace, establishes communion with God.

 

[Johan]

God has now empowered us to overcome the sin that separates us from Him by its nature.

Does that mean that you have stopped sinning? Because you are not telling me that you do not practice what you preach, right? And please don’t give me the “I’m doing my best” that I so often hear from Catholic apologists. “Doing one’s best” does not equal obedience. “Struggling” does not equal obedience. Only the actual keeping of God’s commands counts as obedience.

Should we mock Him by sinning?

So why do you sin? Frankly speaking, this discussion is just a waste of time since it will be the ordinary merry-go-round of baseless claims that Protestants teach a truncated gospel, while you will search for all kinds of excuses for not yet having obtained that additional “bonus” that God apparently has in store, and for not yet being so “empowered” that you have stopped sinning etc. Good day, sir.

 

[Johan]

And the God that strictly determines man’s choices regarding salvation would be an evil clown, worse than satan, not the God revealed by Jesus, not a god worth following. And everyone likes to quote Rom 9:20 when someone disagrees with their concept of God BTW.

The reason why I quoted Rom. 9:20 is because you are arguing just like Paul’s imaginary interlocutor. “How could God do X?” You are plainly saying that if God acts in a certain way, then He is even worse than Satan. So you have determined how God should act in order to be “a god worth following”. This is nothing short of potential atheism. “My way or the highway.” Tell you what: God does what He wants. It is not up to you to tell Him how to be good.

It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, “Why did you make me like this?” Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use? (Rom. 9:16-21)

So God shows mercy to those He wants to show mercy, and He hardens those He wants to harden. Is He “worse than Satan” for doing what He wants?

 

[mcq72]

At four months? ( stinker) I don’t guess you’ve ever had children. At four months, most children can only eat and sleep

Ummmm, you left out one more thing that babies do…lol… that is if you’ve ever had children

 

[mcq72]

So, are you saying, that at 21, if you were an unrepentant, drug addicted, drunkard, you would have been allowed to receive Baptism in your church? You would not have been expected to provide some proof of your faith?

Oh yes, I am with you, and then beyond…that is before baptism one is more than righteous, as in born again, professing the Lord, even indwelt by the Spirit to do so…and to counter wrong idea of perfection or righteous, I still smoked cigarettes and had other human failings.

 

[fhansen]

Does that mean that you have stopped sinning? Because you are not telling me that you do not practice what you preach, right? And please don’t give me the “I’m doing my best” that I so often hear from Catholic apologists. “Doing one’s best” does not equal obedience. “Struggling” does not equal obedience. Only the actual keeping of God’s commands counts as obedience.

Whatever God judges to be sufficient based on what we did with whatever we were given counts as the obedience He requires. And that obedience comes only from the love He’s wrought in us, with our cooperation. Faith was never intended to be a get-out-of hell-regardless-what-we-do-free-card , or a license to sin. Shades of Is 5:20 drift into mind here. Faith is the means to righteousness, not the freedom or escape from fulfilling it. Once righteousness is divorced from…true righteousness, then we’ve succeeded in corrupting the gospel beyond belief. As Augustine put it, “Without love faith may indeed exist, but avails nothing”.

So why do you sin? Frankly speaking, this discussion is just a waste of time since it will be the ordinary merry-go-round of baseless claims that Protestants teach a truncated gospel, while you will search for all kinds of excuses for not yet having obtained that additional “bonus” that God apparently has in store, and for not yet being so “empowered” that you have stopped sinning etc. Good day, sir.

Whether or not I sin is irrelevant to whether or not we must be winning that battle against it, and whether or not we can win it with the help of grace. The gospel is determined by God; I’m not the standard. But either way you already know what Scripture says about sinners and whether or not they’ll enter the kingdom, where the kind of grave sin that opposes love in people are listed. You’re free to heed God’s word-or not-as we all are.

The reason why I quoted Rom. 9:20 is because you are arguing just like Paul’s imaginary interlocutor. “How could God do X?” You are plainly saying that if God acts in a certain way, then He is even worse than Satan. So you have determined how God should act in order to be “a god worth following”. This is nothing short of potential atheism. “My way or the highway.” Tell you what: God does what He wants. It is not up to you to tell Him how to be good.

pot meet kettle. Either way, I’m not telling Him what He should want, or what constitutes goodness for Him; He’s revealed that.

So God shows mercy to those He wants to show mercy, and He hardens those He wants to harden. Is He “worse than Satan” for doing what He wants?

He’d be worse than satan if He created and predestined anyone to eternal torment without regard to their will, if they were made such that they could not help but sin IOW. Then all evils that ever transpired in this world would be directly willed and caused by Him, and for what reason should we then trust such a god?

 

[De_Maria]

Oh yes, I am with you, and then beyond…that is before baptism one is more than righteous, as in born again, professing the Lord, even indwelt by the Spirit to do so…and to counter wrong idea of perfection or righteous, I still smoked cigarettes and had other human failings.

That’s a good point of contrast. Before baptism, the person has responded to God’s call and begun to see his own wretchedness. He begins to detest sin and to love God’s laws and thus begins to act righteously, keeping the Law of God. At this point, he requests baptism. And seeing his faith, God counts it to him as righteousness. Then, grants him the gift of the Holy Spirit, which is the washing of regeneration and he is born again. See Trent VI.

 

[De_Maria]

Does that mean that you have stopped sinning? Because you are not telling me that you do not practice what you preach, right? And please don’t give me the “I’m doing my best” that I so often hear from Catholic apologists. “Doing one’s best” does not equal obedience. “Struggling” does not equal obedience. Only the actual keeping of God’s commands counts as obedience

You forget, we have one judge. I’ll give you 5 guesses who He is. Hint: It’s not you.

Let’s see if St. Paul thought he had to be perfect.

1 Corinthians 4:2 Now it is required that those who have been given a trust must prove faithful. 3 I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself. 4 My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me.

Nope. He doesn’t even know if he’s completely innocent. The only judgment that counts is Jesus Christ’s.

So why do you sin?

Because sin in the flesh is at war with our spirit.

Romans 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Frankly speaking, this discussion is just a waste of time since it will be the ordinary merry-go-round of baseless claims that Protestants teach a truncated gospel, while you will search for all kinds of excuses for not yet having obtained that additional “bonus” that God apparently has in store, and for not yet being so “empowered” that you have stopped sinning etc. Good day, sir.

Sooo, you’ve stopped sinning? Let me remind what Scripture says:

1 John 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

Does that mean that you have stopped sinning? Because you are not telling me that you do not practice what you preach, right? And please don’t give me the “I’m doing my best” that I so often hear from Catholic apologists. “Doing one’s best” does not equal obedience. “Struggling” does not equal obedience. Only the actual keeping of God’s commands counts as obedience.

We are being changed:

And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being changed into his likeness from one degree of glory to another; for this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit. 2 Corinthians.

We all sin:

If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1 John

We are a work in progress but when we do sin there is somewhere to go when we do:

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John

Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. James 5

*His mercies never come to an end. Lamentation 3

 

[mcq72]

My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me.

For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.
1 Corinthians 4:4 KJV

1 Corinthians 4:4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord. | King James Version (KJV) | Download The Bible App Now

 

[Johan]

We are being changed:

And I do not disagree with that. But when someone claims that the Gospel is “more” than Christ being crucified and risen for our salvation, I have to object. And when someone claims that God will empower us so that we may no longer sin, I think it is highly pertinent to ask: so why have you not stopped sinning? What is the obstacle?

 

[Johan]

Whatever God judges to be sufficient based on what we did with whatever we were given counts as the obedience He requires.

And the word of God is very clear: only obedience counts as obedience. Doing “one’s best”, but still failing to keep the commandments, does not count as obedience. Anything to the contrary is “easy obeyism” and self-delusion.

For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.” (Gal. 3:10)

Faith was never intended to be a get-out-of hell-regardless-what-we-do-free-card

No, but the cross of Christ was. He saved us in our ungodliness and brought us from death to life, from condemnation to justification. So you believe that certain sins may undo what Christ accomplished on the cross? Because He bore our sins in His body on the cross, no?

or a license to sin

I think this expression says more about the objector than about those who adhere to sola fide. It sounds like if the objectors would be fully unleashed, they would go on sinning as if there were no tomorrow. Sola fide is not a “license to sin” any more than your sacrament of confession is.

As Augustine put it, “Without love faith may indeed exist, but avails nothing”.

And if he has said that, my response is simply that he got it wrong. We have not been saved because we have loved. We have been saved through faith despite being ungodly and miserably selfish.

Whether or not I sin is irrelevant to whether or not we must be winning that battle against it, and whether or not we can win it with the help of grace.

… or else what? So you do not believe that Christ has already won the battle against sin for you? Seriously? What does Christ really mean to your salvation? You will never stop sinning in this life—that I can tell you with complete certainty. So what battle do you expect to win?

The gospel is determined by God; I’m not the standard. But either way you already know what Scripture says about sinners and whether or not they’ll enter the kingdom, where the kind of grave sin that opposes love in people are listed.

We are all sinners, and the wages of sin—all sin—is death. Even calling one’s brother or sister “you fool” makes us liable to hell. So where does that put us?

He’d be worse than satan if He created and predestined anyone to eternal torment without regard to their will, if they were made such that they could not help but sin IOW.

I find this perspective interesting. You do not seem to have an issue with the notion of eternal torment per se, but only the kind that involves predestination. By the way, do you believe that God wants to harden some people? Because that is a biblical teaching.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

nd when someone claims that God will empower us so that may no longer sin, I think it is highly pertinent to ask: so why have you not stopped sinning? What is the obstacle?

I didn’t read where anyone said they no longer sin. It seems to me you were responding to someone saying that “God has empowered us to overcome the sin that separates us from Him by it’s nature” and “man cannot be righteous apart from God” It take nothing away from His passion, death and resurrection. We are to be overcomers.
Overcome meaning - succeed in dealing with a problem,

1 John 5

For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome. 4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that overcomes the world, our faith. 5 Who is it that overcomes the world but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

and John 15:

I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in me, and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing

You are my friends if you do what I command you.

In all charity, are you reading more into some of the comments than what is there or maybe looking for something that isn’'t there?.

One of our catechisms might help to answer your questions or make things clearer. The Roman Catechism from Trent is very foundational and is just awesome but also the more recent modern catechism is awesome also.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

“Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.” (Gal. 3:10)

He is talking about OT Mosaic law. Are you saying we do not have to do what Jesus instructed?

He saved us in our ungodliness and brought us from death to life, from condemnation to justification.

Yes He did. You’re right.

So you believe that certain sins may undo what Christ accomplished on the cross

There is sin which is deadly. 1 John
Nothing undoes what Christ did but we have free will to reject what Christ did.

 

[Johan]

I didn’t read where anyone said they no longer sin.

That is exactly my point. The claim was made in this very thread that God may empower us to keep His commandments. So the question that immediately presents itself is why a person with that belief has not overcome his/her sins and stopped sinning altogether.

It seems to me you were responding to someone saying that “God has empowered us to overcome the sin that separates us from Him by it’s nature” and “ man cannot be righteous apart from God ” It take nothing away from His passion, death and resurrection. We are to be overcomers.

What do you mean by “overcomers”? That you will one day be able to appear in this thread and claim “I am no longer sinning”? Are we not already overcomers in Christ? Has He not already saved you from sin?

In all charity, are you reading more into some of the comments than what is there or maybe looking for something that isn’'t there?.

I am not reading anything into anything. I am just pointing out the discrepancy between theory and practice. Catholics claim that God will empower us to overcome sin, yet no one can make the claim not to be a sinner. So it seems that everyone has postponed the moment they are supposed to become empowered and stop sinning.

 

[Johan]

Are you saying we do not have to do what Jesus instructed?

You mean, believe in Him and love one another?

There is sin which is deadly. 1 John

The wages of sin is death (Rom. 6:23). Not just one particular sin, but sin.

Nothing undoes what Christ did but we have free will to reject what Christ did.

So by “rejecting” what Christ did (however we may do that), we can undo what He accomplished?

 

[mcq72]

Are you saying we do not have to do what Jesus instructed?

Well, certainly not where love trumps faith. Unbelief hinders the kingdom more than hate, likewise as what put Him on the cross.