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Johan
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I emphatically beg to differ. The Gospel in a nutshell is Christ and Him crucified. It is posts like yours that remind me why I’m not a Catholic.
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mcq72
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Yes, that too (heaven or hell, which is determined by book life, and proved later by book of works…what you think God doesnt know in advance who is His, that He has to wait till end of time to look at book of works/ love?) He knows when one dies where they are headed…never the less for our sakes and His glory we see our acceptance into heaven after death by His acknowledgement of knowing us before the Father and by our name in the book of life…it is not like Santa Claus asking or seeing if we were naughty or nice…that is for the lost who wish to be judged that way and shunned Calvary propitiation.
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mcq72
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Again you are confusing the books, judgements, and when they occur. Our love does not determine heaven or hell.
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TULIPed
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I think (or hope) the New Covenant is more about His love than ours. If not, we’re all in big trouble…
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fhansen
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And your novel theology reminds me why I came back to Catholicism
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fhansen
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We love because He loves. That’s where he’s been trying to bring us to since Eden. Then we’ll obey because we want to
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TULIPed
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Agreed.
Meh. I eat ice cream because I want to. I do things that make me feel good because I want to. I obey Christ because the Holy Spirit is at work in my life. Without Him - at least for me - the whole obeying thing is over before it started.
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MagdalenaRita
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I think there are quite a few points in this post that we do agree on. Sometimes maybe there is more misunderstanding than understanding that happens between Christians.
I completely agree. Just sometimes our thinking can be wrong, is all I was trying to say.
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MagdalenaRita
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For he will render to every man according to his works: 7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; 8 but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury.. Romans 2fhansen:
I emphatically beg to differ. The Gospel in a nutshell is Christ and Him crucified. It is posts like yours that remind me why I’m not a Catholic.
‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.’ 46 And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Matthew 25
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fhansen
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Meh. Unless you obey because you love, you don’t obey. At least not for the reason God has always had in mind, from Eden on. And yes, the HS is an essential part; we cannot love as we should without Him. In any case Basil of Cesarea, a 3rd century bishop, put it this way:
If we turn away from evil out of fear of punishment, we are in the position of slaves. If we pursue the enticement of wages, . . . we resemble mercenaries. Finally if we obey for the sake of the good itself and out of love for him who commands . . . we are in the position of children.
God’s command: “Thou shall love.” And I’ll help you do it if you let Me. Because, “Apart from Me you can do nothing.” Adam thought otherwise; we’re here to learn how wrong Adam was.
And that even “…if I have a faith a that can move mountains but have not love, I am nothing.” God wants us to be something. He won’t force the issue though. If it depended strictly on His mercy and nothing else, then salvation would be universal.
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Johan
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If you call it a “novel theology” that Christ and Him crucified is the Gospel, then it just goes to show how utterly necessary the Reformation was.
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Johan
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For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. (John 3:16)
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fhansen
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Christ crucified is love Personified. And His purpose from the beginning is for us to become the same.
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Johan
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Christ was crucified in order to take our sins on Himself and thereby save us. That is why He came into this world.
The Gospel is not even about Christ. The Gospel is Christ.
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fhansen
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And if the gospel is about nothing more than forgiveness of sins, about ignoring injustice rather than restoring justice, then God’s a fool- and evil. The whole endeavor of creation with the Fall and all the evil and suffering that ensued has no meaning unless His ultimate purposes is change in us, to bring us to the potential He created us for as we become new creations, now authentically righteous, and living that way throughout our lives with the help of grace, after which we’ll be judged.
Otherwise He may as well have just stocked heaven with the elect to begin with and hell with the rest. Instead he placed his creation-us-on a “journey to perfection”, which is worked out as we struggle with sin, with choosing between good and evil until, hopefully, we’ve used our freedom to become totally bound to Him, the ultimate Good… This is the path Jesus opened the way for us, the path we must follow Him on.
Otherwise He may as well have just stocked heaven with the elect to begin with and hell with the rest. Instead he placed his creation-us-on a “journey to perfection”, which is worked out as we struggle with sin, with choosing between good and evil until, hopefully, we’ve used our freedom to become totally bound to Him, the ultimate Good… This is the path Jesus opened the way for us, the path we must follow Him on.
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MagdalenaRita
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I understand what you are saying but I find it kind of a “hmm?” statement, since here you are going to get “Catholic answers” but I used to think the same thing as an evangelical. Then I had several people from 3 different denominations advising me on baptism, all with a different theology. I was so confused. But then I realized if God is not the author of confusion and promised to lead us into all truth, there should not be 3 and more different theologies, just one. That meant there had to be an authority to interpret Scripture and God led me home and it has been the most peaceful thing God has ever given me.
We are nobody’s judge but we can pray for them.
Good works or being good is not enough to go to heaven.
Faith alone is not enough to get to heaven. Scripture tells us even the demons believe, but they are not saved.
Salvation is a free gift of grace but for salvation to be realized we must cooperate with our good works.
The same here, we are not saved by works or obedience but works and obedience are needed for salvation, along with faith.
All of us could say the whole obeying thing is over before it started. We all sin. We all need the blood of Christ and we all need the Holy Spirit working in us to obey but what do we do when we sin, we have the sacrament of confession. We go to Christ, confess our sins, recieve His grace and He who is faithful and just to forgive us, will cleanse us again. Then we strive to love and obey Christ again and we can because His mercy is always there.
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mcq72
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“If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
“Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”
Matt 19:21, 5:48
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Johan
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Yes, it immediately gets confusing whenever people teach that we are (in part) saved by the things we do, instead of through faith in what Christ has done for us. They may try to conceal their anti-Evangelical beliefs by saying that we are by no means saved by good works, but we will not be saved without such works either! Even certain Protestants seem to be inclined to preach such nonsense, and I reject all of it.
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. (Rom. 10:9)
I trust those words. I think they are literally and absolutely true. Faith in Christ is not and can never be the faith of demons. Is the death and resurrection of Christ “enough” for us to get to Heaven? Has He actually saved us or not? What does your authority teach in this regard?
“Cooperate” in order to accomplish what? To make the cross of Christ salvific? I think not. We “cooperate” by preaching to others what a wonderful Savior He is.
How ironic. You wrote exactly in the way I warned about above. As the saying goes: everything stated before “but” is bs. You are effectively saying that you cannot trust Christ to have done everything “needed” for your salvation, so you have to “cooperate” and add what is apparently missing. If you are wondering why we will never see each other on the same side of the Tiber, you have the answer right there. It never gets confusing to cling to the cross of Christ. It is when you add those “buts” and “ifs” that confusion arises.
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Johan
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I shake my head at the readiness among certain Catholics to define under which circumstances they think God would be a “tyrant,” “evil,” “sadist,” “unjust,” etc. If God’s salvific plan does not fit your expectations, then He is a “fool”? The arrogance contained in such a statement is astounding. Paul’s words “who are you, a human being, to talk back to God” (Rom. 9:20) come to my mind.
The Gospel is not merely about forgiveness (as if that would be something insignificant as such)—it is about Christ, the Son of God, having suffered a painful and ignominious death for our salvation, and having been raised to the glory that He now shares with His Father. And you seem to think that this by itself is not “enough”?!
Let me tell you right away that you will never be inherently perfect in this life by your “struggle” (whatever you mean by that). Christ has already perfected us by His sacrifice (Heb. 10:14). He gave us this life in a world characterized by sin, suffering, and death for us to fully understand His grace, which He bestows on His sinful people. He tells us, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness” (2 Cor. 12:9). He is strong when we are weak and imperfect. If He would have directly placed us in Heaven as transformed and perfect people, then that knowledge would never have been obtained.
So instead of putting your faith in the One who has saved you, you are intent on working yourself into Heaven. If that would not be the goal of your life, then God would be a “fool” and even “evil.” Good luck.
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TULIPed
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Are you on board with this from the WCF (Ch. 16)?
"2. These good works, done in obedience to God’s commandments, are the fruits and evidences of a true and lively faith: and by them believers manifest their thankfulness, strengthen their assurance, edify their brethren, adorn the profession of the gospel, stop the mouths of the adversaries, and glorify God, whose workmanship they are, created in Christ Jesus thereunto, that, having their fruit unto holiness, they may have the end, eternal life.
- Their ability to do good works is not at all of themselves, but wholly from the Spirit of Christ. And that they may be enabled thereunto, beside the graces they have already received, there is required an actual influence of the same Holy Spirit, to work in them to will, and to do, of his good pleasure: yet are they not hereupon to grow negligent, as if they were not bound to perform any duty unless upon a special motion of the Spirit; but they ought to be diligent in stirring up the grace of God that is in them."
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