'Sola Caritas' Trumps 'Sola fide'

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Matt. 5:16 “Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father which is in heaven.”

Here is actual experience I had: In my office of work, I was interacting with a Catholic lady who is a pillar in our local Catholic parish. We know each other well and have mutual respect for each other. I told her I have been on CAF and that I have come to realize that the CC teaches that they are the only true Church. She was quiet for a moment, then looked up into my eyes and said “yes, that is true, but then look at all the good your church has done in our community and throughout the world” and then her gaze fell to the floor. After agreeing that we can love each other in Christ we parted very congenially.
 
TULIPed said:
Are you on board with this from the WCF (Ch. 16)?
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Feel free to brand me as a hopeless heretic, abhorred by Catholics and Protestants alike, but my short answer is no. And if Protestantism has not advanced beyond “we are not saved by faith unless we perform good works,” then my humble suggestion is to throw all Protestant confessions into the trash can and write a contrite letter of apology to Rome. Because then Protestant theology has not “reformed” anything, but only reformulated Catholic soteriology while pretending to be “different” by inventing a pentalogue of solas. No wonder that the Catholics are smirking or even laughing at “us,” thinking that we are a confused bunch of people.

If you want me to go into the details of why I find WCF §16 disagreeable, please tell me. But perhaps you need to take some kind of heresy vaccine before doing so. 😉
 
If the last 22 words of section 2 were deleted it would change the situation for me.
 
Johan said:
And if Protestantism has not advanced beyond “we are not saved by faith unless we perform good works,”
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I don’t think it says that does it? Doesn’t Jesus himself in John 15 speak of fruit from abiding in Him?
 
TULIPed said:
I don’t think it says that does it? Doesn’t Jesus himself in John 15 speak of fruit from abiding in Him?
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Unless I have completely misunderstood the Calvinist take on this, the logic runs as follows:
  1. We are saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone (a nice way to combine three of the solas).
  2. However (here the strings attached become visible), genuine faith is manifested in good works.
  3. No manifestation of good works, no genuine faith.
  4. No genuine faith, no salvation.
With a sleight of hand, Calvinism suddenly teaches that we do not only need faith, but also good works to be saved. Not only do these works have to manifest that we trust God—these works have to be morally good works (here the Decalogue enters the picture) stemming from a changed heart. So by having this “no genuine faith unless…” gun to the head, we have started to introduce all kinds of implicit requirements for salvation. That is why “faith alone” in large parts of Protestantism sounds quite hollow to me. It’s like one of these “you may download this software for free (but you have to pay for it later)” ads you can find on the web.
 
But how do you incorporate John 15 into your analysis?

5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.”

You “will” bear much fruit. I’m not a Greek scholar, and perhaps the NIV translation is muddy, but assuming it’s reasonably transparent, it sure seems like Jesus is saying that if we have faith we will bear fruit - much fruit even. How is this not supportive of what’s in the WCF?
 
Johan said:
Yes, it immediately gets confusing whenever people teach that we are (in part) saved by the things we do, instead of through faith in what Christ has done for us.
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So, again, I understand what you are saying and in all charity, it sounds as though you are saying that baptism doesn’t save and that would just then add to the confusion of what does the gospel mean when Jesus says we must be baptized. These are the things that indicate the need for someone or something to represent Christ on Earth and to have been given that authority to interpret Scripture.
Johan said:
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved . (Rom. 10:9)
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I agree with that Scripture verse and I trust them also but I also agree with all the other Scripture verses that state if one wants eternal life they need to keep the words of Christ. I also trust everything Jesus commanded of us in the Gospels
Johan said:
Is the death and resurrection of Christ “enough” for us to get to Heaven? Has He actually saved us or not?
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Yes the death and resurrection of Christ is enough for us to get to heaven. He has saved us. His Words are promises to us, though, as with Abraham in order for that promise to be actualized we must co-operate. We must accept it. It isn’t enough to just say I believe. Our faith needs to be a loving faith, not just a thinking faith.

If you asked one of your children to do something would you want them to say to you, dad I believe you are my dad, I know you love me and gave me everything and sacrificed so I could have all that I have but I do not believe I can obey you perfectly so I am just not going to. I trust that you will just take care of whatever it is you are asking me to do.

Would you want a relationship like that. Why would God want a relationship with that.
Johan said:
You wrote exactly in the way I warned about above. As the saying goes: everything stated before “but” is bs
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Sorry I am not sure what you are saying here.
Johan said:
… you cannot trust Christ to have done everything “needed” for your salvation, so you have to “cooperate” and add what is apparently missing.
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No that is not what I am saying. I do trust Christ. I trust that He lived and died for me but I need to accept that beautiful gift by reaching out and accepting it and I do that by the works that the Holy Spirit leads me to do. I am not perfect, I mess up. I sin and at times choose my own selfishness over my walk with the Lord but I know that He is always there with forgiveness and mercy but I have to reach out for that also. I do that by confessing my sins and the Scriptures instructs us to do.
I also know that I can completely reject Christ and lose my salvation so it is very important to persevere and die in a state of grace, lest my soul be lost.
 
TULIPed said:
But how do you incorporate John 15 into your analysis?

5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.”

You “will” bear much fruit. I’m not a Greek scholar, and perhaps the NIV translation is muddy, but assuming it’s reasonably transparent, it sure seems like Jesus is saying that if we have faith we will bear fruit - much fruit even. How is this not supportive of what’s in the WCF?
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Before I answer that question, can you please tell me what you think the essential difference between Catholic and Calvinist soteriology is? Because both “systems” seem to assert the same thing, namely that we are not saved by works, but by faith that is accompanied by good works. And what is the Gospel in all this, since the strings attached are not insignificant at all? Do good works or perish. Is that what the Gospel is about? Not really what I thought that John 3:16 told me. So I would like to hear your take on this before I offer any exegesis of John 15.
 
Johan said:
“Cooperate” in order to accomplish what? To make the cross of Christ salvific? I think not. We “cooperate” by preaching to others what a wonderful Savior He is.
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But you, man of God, pursue righteousness,
devotion, faith, love, patience, and gentleness.
Compete well for the faith.
Lay hold of eternal life, to which you were called
when you made the noble confession in the presence of many witnesses.
I charge you before God, who gives life to all things,
and before Christ Jesus,
who gave testimony under Pontius Pilate for the noble confession,
to keep the commandment without stain or reproach
until the appearance of our Lord Jesus Christ

1 Timothy 6
Johan said:
then my humble suggestion is to throw all Protestant confessions into the trash can and write a contrite letter of apology to Rome. Because then Protestant theology has not “reformed” anything,
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My question would be, why are you right and all those other protestants wrong? How do you know you are right and all those other protestants are wrong?
 
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I think the key difference is in the idea of “cooperation”. Catholic theology suggests that we choose to cooperate with God in our salvation. We cooperate through our works. Our works are thus additive to salvation. Said roughly - we do the best we can, and Jesus makes up the difference.

Reformed theology rejects completely the idea of “cooperation”. Our salvation is based entirely upon the work that Christ did on the cross. All our works are as “filthy rags” relative to repairing our relationship with our King. With Christ though, we are “new creations” - the old is gone (the “old man” as Paul would say). Strategically speaking, we are “new” in our repaired relationship.

But how does this translate to every day, boots on the ground tactics? Why does Paul write about love being “patient and kind…not insisting on its own way”? I would argue that he paints a picture of what a “new creation” looks like.

How is a butterfly different from a caterpillar? Is not flight evidence of change?
 
TULIPed said:
Said roughly - we do the best we can, and Jesus makes up the difference.
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That is not correct.

Salvation is a free gift. Supernatural faith, hope and charity are infused in to us at baptism. The Bible says Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you. We do absolutely NOTHING to earn that baptism. All the merits of the passion, death and resurrection of Jesus are transmitted to us to save us at our baptism as a totally free gift. 1 Peter 3

While we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly… God shows his love for us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us. Romans 5

We will, though, be judged by our works and how we live our lives according to Matthew 25. Then he will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.’ 46 And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

This is Paul to the Ephesians regarding the free gift of salvation::

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God, not because of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus FOR good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

1 Corinthians 13: if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing

We also can lose that salvation. Romans 11:22:

Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off..
 
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Fair enough. My point was that the word “cooperation” is indicative of a group effort.
 
TULIPed said:
(I think my friend @De_Maria might disagree with you, but I could be wrong. I vaguely remember something about following commandments from a few threads ago…)
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Maybe. ? I didn’t see that post but I am wondering if she would have meant after baptism, rather than before.

I actually got a lot of my post from a talk I wasn’t listening to given by a Catholic priest on what the Church teaches on salvation.
 
I think what you wrote is pretty much exactly what’s in the RCC. It’s just when you guys throw around “cooperate” with justification and salvation that we Protestants get confused 🙂
 
I was very un-righteous and un-obedient before my baptism. (I was 4 months old I think.)
 
TULIPed said:
I was very un-righteous and un-obedient before my baptism. (I was 4 months old I think.)
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And you probably were a stinker!

And I was twice then, again at 21.

Of course a few might say your parents and godparents and parish/ church were righteous and obedient for you.
 
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mcq72 said:
Actuallty if I recall twas before baptism one must be righteous, obedient etc.
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Well, I didn’t see the post but an infant would not be able to do anything to be righteous before being baptized and for an adult, baptism is the first sacrament. It is what cleanses us of original sin and any mortal sin. It provides us with God’s free gift of grace.
 
TULIPed said:
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MagdalenaRita:
We do absolutely NOTHING to earn that baptism.
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(I think my friend @De_Maria might disagree with you, but I could be wrong. I vaguely remember something about following commandments from a few threads ago…)
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Is it this?

“”""""""""""""""
First, that which must be done before Baptism. The Catholic Church says that we must repent of sins and keep the Commandments before we are baptized.

TRENT VI
CHAPTER VI
THE MANNER OF PREPARATION

…especially that the sinner is justified by God by his grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus;[22] and when, understanding themselves to be sinners, they, by turning themselves from the fear of divine justice, by which they are salutarily aroused, to consider the mercy of God, are raised to hope, trusting that God will be propitious to them for Christ’s sake; and they begin to love Him as the fountain of all justice, and on that account are moved against sin by a certain hatred and detestation, that is, by that repentance that must be performed before baptism;[23] finally, when they resolve to receive baptism, to begin a new life and to keep the commandments of God.

Notice that, the resolve to receive Baptism and begin a new life and to keep the Commandments of God is still before Baptism.

Notice too, that beginning to keep the Commandments of God has already started. Since sin is the transgression of the Commandments (1 John 3:4). They have already moved against sin and are therefore keeping the Commandments, before Baptism.

,
Second, that those things done before Baptism do not earn Baptism.

CHAPTER VIII
HOW THE GRATUITOUS JUSTIFICATION OF THE SINNER BY FAITH IS TO BE UNDERSTOOD

But when the Apostle says that man is justified by faith and freely,[44]… we are therefore said to be justified gratuitously, because none of those things that precede justification, whether faith or works, merit the grace of justification.

For, if by grace, it is not now by works, otherwise, as the Apostle says, grace is no more grace.[46]
,

So, although we must “begin to love God as the fountain of all justice, and on that account are be moved against sin by a certain hatred and detestation, that is, by that repentance that must be performed before baptism”, these things are not considered “quid pro quo” by God. Nothing that we do, whether faith or works, earns salvation.

MagdalenaRita is correct.

Does that help any?
 
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