'Sola Caritas' Trumps 'Sola fide'

[Michael16]

How can you disprove our merit by doing good works as part of justification?

 

[mcq72]

Did in post above.

 

[mcq72]

doing good works as part of justification?

Well Mike we have been discussing from CC catechism…that would be a start.

 

[Michael16]

We have and I see that we merit based on doing good works post Baptism. Can you disprove it?

 

[Michael16]

You see, unmerited grace is the start point and we accrue merit doing good works from there. Your argument doesn’t hold water I’m afraid.

 

[Johan]

By doing good works, we grow in justification.

Speaking of gradable concepts, this is another aspect of Catholic theology that keeps puzzling me. If “to be justified” means to be declared righteous before God, how can you “grow” in justification? Is it possible to be more righteous than righteous?

 

[De_Maria]

De_Maria:

That is correct. God’s free will gift of salvation is not absolutely free. It is conditional. Only those who obey God and keep the Commandments, receive it.

This is sophistry. There is no valid difference between “free” and “absolute free”.

Yes. God’s free gift of salvation means that He freely decided to save us. No one twisted His arm. It might more precisely be called, His free will gift.

But He demands that we meet His requirements before He will freely bestow His gift on those whom He deems worthy.

The adjective “free” is not gradable. Something that is not “absolutely” free is not free at all.

People give free gifts all the time which are conditional. For example:

1. A birthday gift. It is absolutely free to the person who has just had a birthday. Not to everyone else.
2. At work, the Company gives free gifts to people who are selected by their peers as “employee of the month”. The Company doesn’t have to give this gift. But gives it freely to the one who meets their criteria.

Your definition of free gift is merely your opinion. And it is wrong.

And I claim the opposite of what you are saying: only elect sinners will receive His gift of salvation.

You’ll have to prove that from Scripture. Matt 25:31-46 proves that God gave His gift of salvation to the Sheep. They are the ones’ who did His will.

And He punished the Goats. They are the ones’ who refused to do His will.

What need would there be in the first place for a non-sinner to be saved?

Are you saying that people save themselves?

Only someone in danger needs to be saved, and those who are inherently righteous are in no spiritual danger.

No one is inherently righteous, except God. But those who wanted to be numbered amongst the God’s righteous, will have to do God’s will.

 

[De_Maria]

How can you disprove our merit by doing good works as part of justification?

[ quote=“mcq72, post:387, topic:561027, full:true”
Did in post above.
[/quote]

They see justification as a one and done deal. He doesn’t realize that this “justification” at the point of conversion is not the justification which results in the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and raising to new life which occurs in Baptism.

Correct me if I’m wrong.

 

[mcq72]

We have and I see that we merit based on doing good works post Baptism. Can you disprove it?

at this point I am not challenging this. I am merely stating what I think we agree on per catechism , that what you call initial salvation /justification, what we call justification, is unmerited, even by faith alone.

 

[Michael16]

Here’s my answer, Johan.

By doing good works, we lay up treasures for ourselves in Heaven. Justification can seen in these terms.

Next, consider the Church’s teaching on the human will: The human will, though stained by original sin; is still free. Think of grace as bolstering our capabilities to overcome our inclination to sin and do good works.

On the other hand, Luther taught that original sin, what the Church considers the inclination to sin; is actual sin and thus, human will is unfree and Wills only what is evil prior to the grace of faith that regenerates the believer.

 

[mcq72]

They see justification as a one and done deal. He doesn’t realize that this “justification” at the point of conversion is not the justification which results in the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and raising to new life which occurs in Baptism

well i am going by your cat…would have to read again as to baptism, new birth…but quickly would seem to say one is justified before baptism also…lol…or are there grades of justification, as Johan suggested that you also seem to see grades of something being “free” ?

 

[De_Maria]

Speaking of gradable concepts, this is another aspect of Catholic theology that keeps puzzling me. If “to be justified” means to be declared righteous before God, how can you “grow” in justification? Is it possible to be more righteous than righteous?

Yes. Just as we are further sanctified. You agree with the process of sanctification, right? To us, acting in justice is a “habitual” grace. We must continually cooperate with God’s grace in order to achieve greater and greater justice.

2 Peter 1: 5 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7 and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love. 8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins.

10 Therefore, my brothers and sisters, make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble, 11 and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

You would say that one is justified at the point of faith. See how St. Peter says that one must be further justified.

 

[Michael16]

No, mcq. We don’t agree. Your theology and ours have antithetical positions on the matter. Your position reads faith alone in a document that states faith and works.

 

[mcq72]

Speaking of gradable concepts, this is another aspect of Catholic theology that keeps puzzling me. If “to be justified” means to be declared righteous before God, how can you “grow” in justification? Is it possible to be more righteous than righteous?

lol…

 

[De_Maria]

De_Maria:

They see justification as a one and done deal. He doesn’t realize that this “justification” at the point of conversion is not the justification which results in the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and raising to new life which occurs in Baptism

well i am going by your cat…would have to read again as to bapyism, new birth…but quickly would seem to say one is justified before baptism

Yes. There is the justification of works. Which is the justification one receives by keeping the Ten Commandments. This is an imperfect justification:

Acts 13:39And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

And there is the Laver of Regeneration, which is the justification one receives in Baptism.

TRENT VI
CHAPTER IV.

A description is introduced of the Justification of the impious, and of the Manner thereof under the law of grace.

By which words, a description of the Justification of the impious is indicated,-as being a translation, from that state wherein man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace, and of the adoption of the sons of God, through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Saviour. And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.

 

[Michael16]

You guys are picking on him.

You guys are misreading your theology onto ours and thus seeing your own doctrines in it. Lay off and try to understand us, please.

 

[mcq72]

No, mcq. We don’t agree. Your theology and ours have antithetical positions on the matter. Your position reads faith alone in a document that states faith and works.

well the cat says something (initial justification) is unmerited, by grace , and later, things (sanctification) are merited grace…very close then …how do you read 2010?

 

[mcq72]

You guys are misreading your theology onto ours and thus seeing your own doctrines in it

lol…exactly what we think you guys are doing to Calvin/ Luther on faith alone yet showing works…reading it thru catholic lens

 

[mcq72]

And there is the Laver of Regeneration, which is the justification one receives in Baptism.

understand , as some say baptism is not a work of righteousness, that it is not at all an equivalency of OT circumcision (beyond dispensation of Holy Spirit that we have now)…so as to not contradict “by works of righteousness no one is saved”.

The catechism sates this , about initial justification not being effectual until baptism ?..did not see that in catechism

 

[De_Maria]

Michael16:

You guys are misreading your theology onto ours and thus seeing your own doctrines in it

lol…exactly what we think you guys are doing to Calvin/ Luther on faith alone yet showing works…reading it thru catholic lens

That’s not true. It is you who claim that faith alone now includes works. As we have repeatedly told you, Scripture says that faith alone is faith without works and is dead.

James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.