'Sola Caritas' Trumps 'Sola fide'

[De_Maria]

Forgive me DeMaria if I am wrong, but aren’t you the one who fairly recently had left the Catholic Church .

If you consider 50 years ago, recent.

If I had it right you were quite vocal here that the Orthodox Church was the true Church.

I’ve never been a member of the Orthodox religion.

Now you are back with a vengeance that I understand even goes against the Catechism of the Catholic Church in your treatment of those of us that know we are Christians but not Catholic.

Hm? I’ve never seen that one, please provide it.

I look forward to hearing from you and Johan because I wonder too and can’t quite figure out just what the Catholic Church really is for sure.

It is the infallible Institution which Jesus Christ established to Teach all that He commanded.

Catholics looking back at the scarred history say that the CC was never unfaithful, only the people in it. If that is true back then, then it probably is true today. How do I know if you now are truly representing the CC as it really is or if you are actually misrepresenting the truth of what the CC really is?

For one, you might try actually reading the Catechism. Let me see the teaching that you mentioned above, in the Catechism.

I hope you understand my question. I am quite confused.

Sure. You’re addressing the praise I gave to TULIPed and Itwin because they challenged Johan’s view on the necessity of works for salvation. Obviously, Johan doesn’t believe they are necessary.

TULIPed and Itwin are Christian and not Catholic. So I Johan. Is there a teaching in the Catechism that I must accept all non-Catholic Christian teaching even when it flies in the face of logic and Revelation?

I am very interested in this Catholic teaching of which you speak.

 

[Wannano]

Please note the first seven words I wrote! I am wrong then. Obviously I had you confused with another poster. So sorry. Actually I am glad I have that cleared up as it was causing me to assess you wrongly.

I am pulling my head back under my shell.

 

[De_Maria]

Please note the first seven words I wrote! I am wrong then. Obviously I had you confused with another poster. So sorry. Actually I am glad I have that cleared up as it was causing me to assess you wrongly.

I am pulling my head back under my shell.

You being wrong about who I am does not get you off the hook about what you claim you saw in the Catechism. Do you admit that you were wrong about that, as well?

 

[Wannano]

My understanding is that the CC now teaches that non-Catholic Christians are brothers and sisters in Christ and that our churches (ecclesial communities) are a means of providing the message of Christ necessary for Salvation. From your agruements with many posters on this thread far smarter than me I would gather that your goal is to demolish that statement.

 

[De_Maria]

My understanding is that the CC now teaches …

I asked you to provide the proof of your statement. And then you need to provide proof that anything which I have said contradicts Catholic Doctrine.

 

[ArchStanton]

This might help with the confusion…

What "No Salvation Outside the Church" Means | Catholic Answers Magazine

Blessings!

 

[Johan]

I agree. Have you ever encountered this verse? What do you make of it?

Hebrews 10:36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

Since you are the one asking, I guess you want me to comment on what you perceive as “salvation as the reward for having done good works” or something similar. As you can see, the sentence begins with “for” (γάρ), which suggests that it is the continuation of a preceding statement. So let’s read those two verses together.

Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward. For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.

The word “confidence” (παρρησία) denotes the courage to hope (Heb. 3:6) and the courage to approach the presence of God (Heb. 4:16; 10:19), knowing that Christ has made us acceptable to Him by His blood. It is also closely connected to the concept of faith (it is by faith that we act with courage), as we can see for instance here:

For those who have served well as deacons obtain for themselves a high standing and great confidence in the faith that is in Christ Jesus. (1 Tim. 3:13)

We also note that the author of Hebrews is in the immediate context stressing that it is by faith that the righteous shall live (v. 38) and by faith that we preserve our souls (v. 39).

Concerning the expression “doing the will of God”, it most probably is an allusion to the verbally similar phrase in v. 7 where it refers to the eagerness of Christ to do the will of the Father (to give His life for our salvation). Since we should derive our interpretation from the context and not just read into the text anything that could be perceived as the will of God, I conclude that “doing the will of God” refers to us persevering in faith (despite the suffering that discipleship might entail), having the confidence that He has saved us and will one day receive us in the heavenly kingdom.

 

[lanman87]

I am a Christian because I believe in Christ who gave His life for me. I reject with my entire being every “gospel” (that is, in fact, no gospel at all) that states that faith in Him is not “enough” for salvation.

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation . The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. 2 Corinthians 5:17

When we come to Christ by faith we are changed. Our hearts and minds are changed which result in our actions being changed. The word “Repent” means to change one’s mind which results in a changed action. Our hearts and minds are not changed by our works, they are changed by God via the work of the Holy Spirit.

Does going to church make someone a Christian? No
Do Christian go to church to worship and fellowship and grow? Yes, because if we have been born again we love God and want to live for Him.
Does helping the poor make someone a Christian? No
Do Christians help the poor? Yes, because if we have been born again we love God and want to live for Him?

I could go on and on. Our works do not make us a Christian. We are saved by Grace through Faith. However, when we come to faith in Christ and are place “In Christ” by the power of the Holy Spirit our hearts are changed. This change in heart is made evident by what we do and how we live our life.

Just as repentance, acts of love and service, and worship are evidence of our faith and love for God the lack of repentance, acts of service and worship are evidence of a lack of faith and love for God.

I do agree with you when you said it is not the strength of our faith that saves, it is the object of our faith. That is Christ. However, even a weak faith struggles to be conformed to the image of Christ. We all have different experiences and circumstances and struggles. But if we have faith (even a weak faith) there will always be a struggle to overcome sin and live for Christ. The absence of that struggle indicates that faith isn’t weak, it is non-existent.

The Free Grace movement is perversion of the Gospel (and a perversion of “faith alone”) that says repentance and good works don’t flow from a saving faith.

The Free Grace movement says you can come to faith without your heart being changed, you can have faith without the natural results of that faith, and that you can say “I love Jesus” and yet live for yourself. As an American Evangelical Christian I oppose the Free Grace Movement as a dangerous teaching that makes people think they are “saved” just by saying a prayer and having an intellectual belief in Christ, when in fact (in some cases) their heart hasn’t been changed by the Holy Spirit and they haven’t been “born again”.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

My understanding is that the CC now teaches that non-Catholic Christians are brothers and sisters in Christ and that our churches (ecclesial communities) are a means of providing the message of Christ necessary for Salvation

There is no salvation outside the Catholic church. That has not changed. If someone is saved when they die but is physically outside the Catholic church it is because of something in one of those ecclesial communities, that came from the Catholic church, such as the knowledge of Christ and His sacrifice for our sins.

 

[mcq72]

You’re addressing the praise I gave to TULIPed and Itwin because they challenged Johan’s view on the necessity of works for salvation.

Perhaps, and quite possible, I missed something. I took that all three challenge the neccesity of works for salvation, key word being “for”. I think what was challenged, or put forth as a qualification to the first statement was the encouragement and value of works to prove ones salvation. That is to say, faith alone justifies, but lets not forget that if works and love dont follow, you may not be saved or have such faith as needed, in Christ, alone.

I think we are all warning against “easy believism” if I recall. Pretty sure none postulated Catholic doctrine of salvation by faith and works equally, that works actually save you also (apart from glorification).

Not denying that lurking in the background was some “caution” to strict Calvinism perhaps…lol…if I know just a little, enough to be dangerous, even wrong.

 

[De_Maria]

Since you are the one asking, I guess you want me to comment on what you perceive as “salvation as the reward for having done good works” or something similar.

For having done the will of God.

Revelation 22:12And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

As you can see, the sentence begins with “for” (γάρ), which suggests that it is the continuation of a preceding statement. So let’s read those two verses together.

Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward. For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.

The word “confidence” (παρρησία) denotes the courage to hope (Heb. 3:6) and the courage to approach the presence of God (Heb. 4:16; 10:19), knowing that Christ has made us acceptable to Him by His blood. It is also closely connected to the concept of faith (it is by faith that we act with courage), as we can see for instance here:

For those who have served well as deacons obtain for themselves a high standing and great confidence in the faith that is in Christ Jesus. (1 Tim. 3:13)

We also note that the author of Hebrews is in the immediate context stressing that it is by faith that the righteous shall live (v. 38) and by faith that we preserve our souls (v. 39).

Concerning the expression “doing the will of God”, it most probably is an allusion to the verbally similar phrase in v. 7 where it refers to the eagerness of Christ to do the will of the Father (to give His life for our salvation).

So, we should give our life for …

1 Peter 2:21For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:

Since we should derive our interpretation from the context and not just read into the text anything that could be perceived as the will of God, I conclude that “doing the will of God” refers to us persevering in faith (despite the suffering that discipleship might entail), having the confidence that He has saved us and will one day receive us in the heavenly kingdom.

I don’t get it. Do you think you contradicted the necessity of works with your explanation?
I didn’t see anything in the context which you explained, that amounted to a denial of the necessity of works. What part of your explanation do you see as saying, “works aren’t necessary” for salvation? And when I combine my point with other Scriptures, just as you did yours, I find it even more forcefully stressed in Scripture. For example:

Hebrews 5:9And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Philippians 2:12Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

 

[TULIPed]

I think we are all warning against “easy believism” if I recall. Pretty sure none postulated Catholic doctrine of salvation by faith and works equally, that works actually save you also (apart from glorification).

Correct. Bonhoeffer calls it “cheap grace”.

 

[mcq72]

This might help with the confusion…

https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/what-no-salvation-outside-the-church-means

Blessings!

Thank you. I think the article is missing where Lumen Gentia reflects on separated brethren, of a union however an imperfect one. That there is grace and salvation found in them, yet still attributable to CC.

Unfortunately all the main aspects of teaching on seperated brethren are not written together in one nice package. So you can read in one place that separated brethren are still brethren, but in another, unless they live under a shell and have no knowledge of CC , they are probably doomed. And that for being “apart” and specifically of the sacraments, which are necesary for a Catholic salvation, and for anyone who has been taught of them.

The article is pretty good. I agree with it when quoting that Jesus said, “Salvation is of the Jews”. The article then goes on to say that now it is, “Salvation is of the Catholics.” I would partly agree with that perhaps in early church, but certainly not after divisions with the east, and later the P’s…

The more accurate statement would be , " Salvation is of the Christians". This would cover the church from get go of Pentecost, avoiding later names of “the way” and later “Catholic”. I suppose Jews could still take offense because really salvation was imnediately a “Jewish” proclamation and reality. The first Church was Jewish. Jesus today is still “Jewish”.

Anyways, I find it quite sectarian to say, “Salvation is of the Catholics”. I mean you could say it is of the church, but today that won’t help, because of our three main divisions. Just like in Jesus day, Christ did not say, " Salvation is of the Pharisees", ( nor Saducees, or Essenes or Nazarenes, or Zealots, etc, etc.). That is not to say He was not critical of their respective errors, but when confronting an extreme sect (the Samaritan woman), He put forth the truth that was common in a united way.

Hence “Christians” covers the united catholic saving truth to an unbelieving world.

 

[mcq72]

Correct. Bonhoeffer calls it “cheap grace”.

And how from Katheryn Kuhlman…“it costs you everything”…as it did Christ.

 

[ArchStanton]

I apologize in advance as the ‘reply’ button doesn’t seem to quote you or give me the ability to highlight part of your post.

Where you mention ‘Salvation is of the Christians’, I wouldn’t necessarily agree. Though we are brethren in Christ [separated], the HS does not work in ‘partial truths’. It all goes back to ‘authority’. Was a church established and guided by the HS? Did it have an expiration date? Would the HS allow error to be taught?

Blessings!

 

[Johan]

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation . The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. 2 Corinthians 5:17

Not that this translation is necessarily incorrect—I just want to point out that the underlying text is ambiguous. It reads ὥστε εἴ τις ἐν Χριστῷ, καινὴ κτίσις, which is literally “Therefore, if anyone [is] in Christ, new creation” (cf. how the NIV renders the verse). The context of that verse does not mention anything about an inner change, or changed behavior, so your interpretation looks a bit conjectural.

When we come to Christ by faith we are changed. Our hearts and minds are changed which result in our actions being changed. The word “Repent” means to change one’s mind which results in a changed action. Our hearts and minds are not changed by our works, they are changed by God via the work of the Holy Spirit.

Does this mean that we are “changed” so much that we are no longer sinning? This is, of course, a rhetorical question since we both know the answer, but still: what do you mean by “changed” unless it refers to a reversal to pre-fall Adam?

Do Christians help the poor? Yes, because if we have been born again we love God and want to live for Him?

But also many Jews, Muslims, Hinduists, Buddhists, Jainists, Taoists, and even atheists are inclined to help the poor, so that is hardly a distinctively Christian trait.

I could go on and on. Our works do not make us a Christian. We are saved by Grace through Faith. However, when we come to faith in Christ and are place “In Christ” by the power of the Holy Spirit our hearts are changed. This change in heart is made evident by what we do and how we live our life.

And whenever you sin (which you do, as you surely admit), what does that make evident? Is it the “balance” between good and not-so-good works that shows that you are a Christian?

 

[Johan]

I do agree with you when you said it is not the strength of our faith that saves, it is the object of our faith. That is Christ. However, even a weak faith struggles to be conformed to the image of Christ. We all have different experiences and circumstances and struggles. But if we have faith (even a weak faith) there will always be a struggle to overcome sin and live for Christ. The absence of that struggle indicates that faith isn’t weak, it is non-existent.

Two things: I thought it was God who worked in us in order to conform us to the image of Christ, but here you refer to some kind of personal “struggle.” Do we have to “struggle” to be conformed? You even claim that it is our faith that is makes us struggle. I would really like to see some Scriptural support for your assertions here.

The Free Grace movement is perversion of the Gospel (and a perversion of “faith alone”) that says repentance and good works don’t flow from a saving faith.

I can’t say I am familiar with this movement, but the only “perversion” I can think of is a theology that pretends to be Evangelical, but effectively denies that we are justified by faith alone and no works whatsoever. I also reject the notion of “saving faith.” It is not our faith per se that saves us. Faith is not our Savior. Christ is our Savior. He saves us through faith—He even saved us before we had any good works “flowing” out of ourselves to show that our faith was “real.”

The Free Grace movement says you can come to faith without your heart being changed, you can have faith without the natural results of that faith, and that you can say “I love Jesus” and yet live for yourself.

What do you mean by “natural results”? That faith itself will change us? I cannot find that notion in the Scriptures either. The Spirit who grants us faith will also work in us to do what is good. And since you are accusing this movement of certain disagreeable opinions, can you please quote something they have “officially” written that supports your allegations?

As an American Evangelical Christian I oppose the Free Grace Movement as a dangerous teaching that makes people think they are “saved” just by saying a prayer and having an intellectual belief in Christ, when in fact (in some cases) their heart hasn’t been changed by the Holy Spirit and they haven’t been “born again”.

I do not believe that I have been saved because my heart has been changed, but because Christ has died for my sins. He came to save me and not to merely make me “savable.” The only time Paul wrote about a false gospel (to the Galatians), the problem was not a lack of “inner change”, but the nefarious teaching that the cross of Christ is inadequate for our salvation.

 

[mcq72]

Though we are brethren in Christ [separated], the HS does not work in ‘partial truths’

Correct, but then there is wisdom, how to use truth. Jesus didnt find it a problem in posing a united front of Judaism to the Samaritan. Jesus did not say which kind of Jew saves.

 

[ArchStanton]

But He did give the ‘keys of authority’ to Peter. Christ also gave the powers to bind/loose to a particular church.

Blessings!

 

[mcq72]

But He did give the ‘keys of authority’ to Peter.

He most certainly did, and He most certainly was the first to use them as in preaching at Pentecost.

The other apostles shared in the power and ministry of the keys.

Peter was first amongst equals.

Revelation gives no respector of persons amongst “12 apostles” that are described to form our foundation, Jesus being the only chief cornerstone.

Christ also gave the powers to bind/loose to a particular church

Well, it only became particular later on. There was only one church at the very beginning, even when Jesus handed out the keys.