Sola Scriptura questions

[SacredHeart1987]

That’s the entire point of the CAFs! We are here to propose, discuss, wrangle, engage, dialogue…all in an effort to come to a fuller understanding the the Truth. That was one of the mandates of our first Pope, St. Peter (see 1 Pet 3:15).

Thank you!

But, which Holy Spirit? * *

1. How can the Holy Spirit tell the Lutherans the Eucharist is the true presence of Christ, and then tell the Baptists it is only a symbol?
2. How can the Holy Spirit tell the Methodists it is alright to have female ministers, and then tell the Baptists it is unbiblical?
3. How can the Holy Spirit tell the Seventh Day Adventists that Saturday is the day of worship, and then tell the Presbyterians the day of worship is Sunday and not Saturday?
4. How can the Holy Spirit tell the Lutherans that the Blessed Virgin Mary was and remains always virgin, and then tell the Baptists she had other children?
5. How can the Holy Spirit tell the Baptists, ‘once saved always saved’, and then tell the Church of Christ that Sola Fides is unscriptural?
6. How can the Holy Spirit tell Episcopalians to baptize infants and then tell Pentecostals infant baptism is invalid?
7. How can the Holy Spirit tell Mormons that the Holy Trinity is three separate persons, and then tell Methodists the Trinity is three persons in one GOD?
   Originally posted here

Obviously Scripture alone isn’t sufficient as the rule of faith

 

[Richard_Kastner]

And, each and every time you ask “where is that in the Bible” you are supporting a man-made tradition that’s not found in the Bible.

Asking you “where is that in the Bible” is not “supporting a man-made tradition” IT’S A QUESTION. How can a question support anything. When I ask where is that in the bible what I want to know is where that is in the bible. I’m not making any kind of statement for some imaginary tradition.

For the Bible never says that all Truth that’s been revealed has been contained in its pages. It never says it’s the norm for our faith. It never says it’s the foundation of our faith.

2Tim3
16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

It says here that scripture is able to instruct me in righteousness and show me how to be perfect. That’s good enough for me.

In fact, it says the opposite.

See it’s statements like this that force me to ask “where is that in the Bible” And don’t think that I am “supporting a man-made tradition” with this question.

The entire Bible is a Love Story from God. It is His Wedding Invitation to us. It starts with a wedding in Genesis and ends with a wedding in Revelation.

Wedding imagery is just all over the Bible–firstly, I refer you to the Song of Songs.

See Ephesians 5. See Genesis 2:23-25

See Genesis 1, the creation story. Male and female He created them. A communion of persons was created–a unity which cannot be broken. It is precisely in this sublime One Flesh Union that humanity is declared to be in the image and likeness of God.

Ok

As for the spousal relationship between husband and wife: this self-donative, sacrificial, sacramental love that is at the heart of the covenant of marriage is the life-giving love of the Trinity. It is the love of our Redeemer, poured out at Calvary.

Here I have a problem
You don’t say spousal love is like the love expressed between the persons of the Godhead. You say** it is **this love.

John 17:24
Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

Jesus here says that the Father loved Him before the foundation of the world, which means before the creation of man which means that the spousal love is not the love expressed in the Godhead. And really PR would not your statement above be bringing the love expressed in the Godhead, a love that I know that I don’t understand, down to human love. I mean look at Jn. 3: 16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Can you say that you understand the love expressed here and this is God’s love for the world. Now if we consider this love between the members of the Godhead, well it’s far beyond my reach, but to religate that love to sinful human restictions is unthinkable.

This gift of self in the sacrament of marriage expresses the Divine Image in the human person.

This sounds really profound, but I have no idea what it means. Please clarify.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Obviously Scripture alone isn’t sufficient as the rule of faith

You’re saying that scripture is not sufficient because people make mistakes?

 

[PRmerger]

Asking you “where is that in the Bible” is not “supporting a man-made tradition” IT’S A QUESTION. How can a question support anything. When I ask where is that in the bible what I want to know is where that is in the bible.

The man-made tradition to which you’ve succumbed is that you have to base everything on the Bible.

I’m not making any kind of statement for some imaginary tradition.

Indeed. You chose your word quite well, Richard. There is no verse in the Bible that tells you that you must base all of your doctrines on the Bible. It is an imaginary paradigm that you have believed because you’ve heard it.

You’ve not read it on one page of the Sacred Scriptures.

It says here that scripture is able to instruct me in righteousness and show me how to be perfect. That’s good enough for me.

Again, good choice of words. I don’t want “good enough” from my spouse. I want everything and give everything to my beloved.

As you note, Scripture is able to instruct, but it is not the norm for our faith. It is not the pillar and foundation for truth.

This sounds really profound, but I have no idea what it means. Please clarify.

Yes. You truly have no idea the revolution which has begun in your heart and mind when you consider the implications of what all of this means.

I refer you to Pope JPII’s Theology of the Body–a study of the Sacred Scriptures more profound than* anything *you’ve ever heard preached from the pulpit, I assure you.

More later!

 

[Richard_Kastner]

We need some common ground here and since I do not accept your churches tradition, the bible is it.

Contradictory and self-refuting statement.

Well first of all my statement was “I do not accept your churches tradition” I didn’t say I rejected all tradition, but tradition always must take a back seat to the word of God.

You do follow a tradition (SDA,Methodist,etc) and view scripture from those lenses;hence you do follow a tradition.

Ok

BTW: The Bible is interpretated from the ancient church Tradition and even my NKJV Study Bibles makes that very clear.

You have an interpretation in your bible? It must be very big.

 

[benedictus2]

This doesn’t answer the question. Since you seem to have taken it upon yourself to answer for PR, I’ll ask you.

How does this help us gain eternal life and where do we find this principle in the bible?

In this forum anyone can but in in everyone’s discussion. That is the whole point of the internet forums. Or are you not aware of that fact?

As for your question, I thought that was rather obvious.

This principle is found in Eph 5:25-27, 2 Cor 11:2, Rev 19:7-9, 21:1-2

How does this principle help us gain eternal life? Because it tells us goal of our life. That salvation means being incorporated into His Church as attested to in the verses I have noted.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Indeed. You chose your word quite well, Richard. There is no verse in the Bible that tells you that you must base all of your doctrines on the Bible. It is an imaginary paradigm that you have believed because you’ve heard it.

You’ve not read it on one page of the Sacred Scriptures.

Everything that I need to gain eternal life I have read in the pages of the bible. Again the bible doesn’t have to say that it contains everything I need in order for it to contain it.

Again, good choice of words. I don’t want “good enough” from my spouse. I want everything and give everything to my beloved.

Wow, perfect is not “GOOD ENOUGH” for you?

As you note, Scripture is able to instruct, but it is not the norm for our faith

It’s the norm for my faith.

It is not the pillar and foundation for truth.

What is?

Yes. You truly have no idea the revolution which has begun in your heart and mind when you consider the implications of what all of this means.

I refer you to Pope JPII’s Theology of the Body–a study of the Sacred Scriptures more profound than* anything *you’ve ever heard preached from the pulpit, I assure you.

More later!

Does that mean you’re not going to tell me what it means?

 

[Richard_Kastner]

In this forum anyone can but in in everyone’s discussion. That is the whole point of the internet forums. Or are you not aware of that fact?

As for your question, I thought that was rather obvious.

This principle is found in Eph 5:25-27, 2 Cor 11:2, Rev 19:7-9, 21:1-2

How does this principle help us gain eternal life? Because it tells us goal of our life. That salvation means being incorporated into His Church as attested to in the verses I have noted.

Eph5
25Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
28So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.

2Cor.11
2For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

Rev.19
7Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

Rev.21
1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Very good. I don’t know if you are saying this by this statement “That salvation means being incorporated into His Church” but salvation is not attained by joining any church. It is attained by faith in Jesus and through that faith we automatically become a member of His Church.

 

[benedictus2]

Actually v.18 does not “encapsulate” the chapter. In the first part Jesus talks about the leaven of the pharasees v. 12Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

I am glad you highlighted this verse.

Jesus is rejecting the teaching of the Pharisees and the Saduccees. Why?

**Because He is about to instate a new teaching AUTHORITY **that will be grounded on Him but founded on Peter. Peter’s authority does not derive from Peter but rather from the authority that Christ confers on him.

And isn’t this exactly what we are trying to say when claim that Peter was made the Rock upon which Jesus built His Church? We are claiming that the doctrines that come from the Church is the correct doctrine because Christ is the one who established this Church.

And in vs. 21-24 we read this
21From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
22Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
23But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
24Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

And these verses are still consistent with Peter being the Rock. At the point the promise has just been made and Peter did not understand that promise. All these will only make sense to them after the resurrection and Pentecost.

Jesus rebukes Peter and actually calls him Satan. He tells Peter that he just doesn’t understand God’s plan of salvation.

And that is true. And Jesus being God already knew that Peter would say that, already knew that Peter would deny Him AND YET He still made that declaration that Peter is the Rock.
No amount of rationalization will obliterate that fact.

 

[benedictus2]

Then Jesus says “If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.”

And is that not exactly what Peter was able to do when He was martyred in Rome?

And those who do not follow our Lord into the Church which HE established is **not denying themselves. They are adamant that it is their own teaching and will **that they will follow rather than the teaching and will of Christ.

He doesn’t say that we should follow Peter, who obviously didn’t understand what Jesus was doing. He said “If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.”

Yes, that is true and only when we belong to His Church do we truly follow Him, because to follow Him is to do His WILL. What did he expressly WILL? To build His Church upon Peter.

That is as plain as day in the Bible.

 

[benedictus2]

Richard_Kastner:

The way I see it vs.13-19 support the fact that Jesus built His Church on Himself.
Matt.16
13**When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

14And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. 15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? 16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
**
Jesus asks His disciples who do men say that **I am **and who do you say that **I am **Then Peter say that it is Jesus that is the Christ. Christ means the anointed In this case the Anointed of God to carry out His plan of Salvation and Peter is talking about Jesus not himself.

And you are right, Peter is talking about Jesus not himself. But Jesus was talking about Peter not Himself.
Oh Richard, which part of “And I (this is Jesus speaking) say also unto thee (referring to Simon), That thou art Peter (which means Rock), and upon this rock (which is Simon) I (Jesus Christ) will build my (Jesus Christ’s) church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." is so hard to understand?

Here is a more detailed explanation of Matthew 16.

Background:

Caesaria Philipi is around 20 miles ( a rough two days journey up the mountains) from Galillee.

Now why does our Lord go to all that trouble just for this scene?

Caesaria Philipi which used to be called Panneas was dedicated to the Greek god Pan. When Philip Herod became tetrarch of that region he gave it to Augustus Caesar for some favour so it became Ceasaria Philipi, that is, Ceasar’s city from Philip.

In this region is a humongous rock around 500ft long and 200ft high.

On top of this rock is a huge marble temple with an idol of the god Pan. Philip Herod replaced that idol of Pan with the idol of the divine Ceasar Augustus (emperors were considered divine).

To the left of the rock is a cave and in the cave is a deep hole filled with water which is the source of the Jordan river. The pagans believed this to to be the gates of sheol - the doorway to the underworld.

With that scene in mind, read the text in your post that I highlighted in blue.

Comment:

So now we have Jesus standing next to this rock, on top of which, is a temple to a false god (two false gods as a matter of fact) next to which is a cave that is the gate to sheol. **He is now saying that He will do something different. He will build the Church of the True God on top of a rock and that rock is Simon barJonah **and the gates of hell will not prevail against it.

We even see here a parallel with the sheep/shepherd motif in the commissioning of Peter in John 21. This area and temple used to be dedicated to Pan, the god of shepherds. Here we have Chist the True God giving the promise to Peter who He will later commission to shepherd His sheep.

Steve Ray also notes the implication of the water in the cave and it’s relation to baptism.

This cave is the origin of the Jordan river where Jesus was baptized and went with His disciples baptizing. One can see in this symbolism the whole salvation theology including that of baptism as a sacrament of incorporation into Christ’s Church. Peter is the rock and the water from this Rock now waters Gods’ people.

Another thing, and this is very important, neither Jesus nor the Father made any teaching about Jesus’ true identity and mission. This teaching THEY caused to be pronounced through Peter.
Christ could have gone around proclaiming He is the Son of God but He didn’t. He let that be declared through Peter.

If you notice, even His apostles had no real clue as to who Jesus was. Peter cuts through all that speculation and pronounces the TRUTH about Jesus Christ. Through the ages to this very day, his successors continue to pronounce the truth about who Jesus is and what His mission is all about.

 

[benedictus2]

Eph5
25Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
28So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.

2Cor.11
2For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

Rev.19
7Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

Rev.21
1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Very good. I don’t know if you are saying this by this statement “That salvation means being incorporated into His Church” but salvation is not attained by joining any church

. It is attained by faith in Jesus and through that faith we automatically become a member of His Church.

You are right, salvation is not attained by joining ANY church bur rather HIS (Christ’s) Church.

Acts 2: 46-47 Every day they devoted themselves to meeting together in the temple area and to breaking bread in their homes. They ate their meals with exultation and sincerity of heart,47praising God and enjoying favor with all the people. **And every day the Lord added **to their number those who were being saved.

To what does “their number” refer to? The Church that started at Pentecost.

It is clear that to be saved is to be added to THIS Church.

Who is doing the adding? The Lord.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

And is that not exactly what Peter was able to do when He was martyred in Rome?

And those who do not follow our Lord into the Church which HE established is **not denying themselves. They are adamant that it is their own teaching and will **that they will follow rather than the teaching and will of Christ.

Yes, that is true and only when we belong to His Church do we truly follow Him, because to follow Him is to do His WILL. What did he expressly WILL? To build His Church upon Peter.

That is as plain as day in the Bible.

Jn.6
39And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

You are right, salvation is not attained by joining ANY church bur rather HIS (Christ’s) Church.

Acts 2: 46-47 Every day they devoted themselves to meeting together in the temple area and to breaking bread in their homes. They ate their meals with exultation and sincerity of heart,47praising God and enjoying favor with all the people. **And every day the Lord added **to their number those who were being saved.

To what does “their number” refer to? The Church that started at Pentecost.

It is clear that to be saved is to be added to THIS Church.

Who is doing the adding? The Lord.

Well, Ben I’m not going to derail this thread any longer. You have my view on what Jesus was doing in Matt.16, I will comment no further on it. If you believe that you are saved by entering the CC, the only thing I can do is pray that the Spirit of the living God convert your heart and bring you to the knowledge of Jesus and what He, not a church, has done for you.

 

[WHOWHIE]

Sola Scriptura is not taught in the Bible.

 

[benedictus2]

Well, Ben I’m not going to derail this thread any longer. You have my view on what Jesus was doing in Matt.16, I will comment no further on it.

Is this just a case of you having a view and me having a view? Aren’t we here to ferret out the truth?

The question is which view is correct? Which view is aligned with Christ’s will?

If you believe that you are saved by entering the CC, the only thing I can do is pray that the Spirit of the living God convert your heart and bring you to the knowledge of Jesus and what He, not a church, has done for you.

Oh no I do not believe I am saved by entering the Catholic Church.

However, the graces needed for my salvatioin which Christ has WILLED TO BE MADE AVAILABLE VIA THE CATHOLIC CHURCH is readily avaiable within the Catholic Church and which will surely help towards my salvation.

Ask yourself this, doesn’t the fact that Christ established a Church mean something? This is something that He expressly willed. So why would anyone want to be in a church other than the Church that Christ established here on earth? I thought that for Christian’s Christ’s will matters. But it seems not for you.

And I am praying that God convert you heart so that you will truly see that establishing the Catholic Church is precisely what Christ has done for us to accomplish our salvation and it is sad that you cannot see that. But one day you will.

I think that finally, Scripture has got you stumped.

 

[benedictus2]

Jn.6
39And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

I am very pleased you’ve come back to John 6.

Now how about citing the rest of the chapter. It seems that you are always dodging these verses.

You see, the rest of the Chapter (41-62) is a kind of litmus test of whether one believes in him or not. The other disciples failed the test. They did not believe so walked away from the hard sayings. Neither did Judas. That is why he betrayed Jesus.

But those who really believed in Him stayed - inspite of the hard sayings, inspite of the fact that they did not understand either.

Know what, because we really believe in the Son, we see Him in the Eucharist.

So what were you saying again about believing in Him?

 

[guanophore]

This doesn’t answer the question. Since you seem to have taken it upon yourself to answer for PR, I’ll ask you.

How does this help us gain eternal life and where do we find this principle in the bible?

Are you honestly saying that you don’t see this in Scripture?

Are you honestly saying that you dont’ think our understanding of ourselves in relation to Go has any bearing on salvation?!

 

[guanophore]

Jesus rebukes Peter and actually calls him Satan. He tells Peter that he just doesn’t understand God’s plan of salvation. Then Jesus says “If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.”

He doesn’t say that we should follow Peter, who obviously didn’t understand what Jesus was doing. He said “If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.”

Do you think that Peter NEVER “got it”? do you think Peter did not learn to deny himself, and follow Jesus to the cross?

Do you think Peter’s misunderstanding at that time means we should not follow Peter, because Peter does not follow Christ?

The way I see it vs.13-19 support the fact that Jesus built His Church on Himself.

Indeed, Jesus is THE ROCK. He grafted Peter into His own “rockness”. Peter was therefore able to may a “rocky” statement.

Yes, scripture attests that Jesus is the cornerstone of the Church. However, the Church is built upon Peter and the other Apostles and prophets. If you deny this,m then you deny the witness of the Scriptures.

16And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

A good example of an infallible act of a fallible man!

 

[guanophore]

God doubles a thing twice before He brings it to pass.

Did you find this in Scripture somewhere, or is this another of those extrabibilical traditions of man?

In the bible we can see three distinct marriages.

1. God’s breath as Adam in Adam married to Eve, the clay vessel, or the weaker of the two, of which both are called Adam. (The first Adam = flesh)
2. The marriage of the breath of God as Jesus and Mary, the clay vessel. (Second type of Adam = quickening spirit)

I notice you left out the third, where Jesus breathes the breath of Life upon the Church.

So what we have here is, Jesus espoused (as like a wife)

All I can say is that you are being fed some very strange food in that non-denom of yours. Have you ever considered returning to the faith that was embraced by the Apostles?

 Now, traditionally thinking, you will not find these views at all

YOu know, that is EXACTLY what I was thinking!

unless, one should desire the depth of the word as a personal goal and one to meditate on for personal insite into God’s mysteries.

I am glad to know that you are also aware that these are the products of your imagination.

What you may not know is that they represent a significant departure from the faith of the Apostles.

Oh, by the way, there are no exact scriptures to back all this up,

It is good you know this. It may be a beginning to get you back o n the road to orthodox Christianity.

but, as you look at the whole picture, from corner to corner, you will see it’s development.

Thanks all the same, but I prefere the development of the mustard seed planted by Christ.

You've seen some of those three dimensional pictures that one must stare for a minute, looking at it in whole, until one can begin to see the 3 dimensional

figures begin to take shape in your mind.

Yes, it is good that you know this. And when you study the psychology behind this phenomenon,m you will come to learn that this occurs because the human mind struggles to conform what it sees to what it knows (tries to make meaning out of the inuput). When men do this apart from the Revelation of God, men get lost very quickly, because our minds are darkened by our fallen state.

Similarly, does one look at scripture.

You may do this with Scripture, but this method is contrary to what the Apostles believed and taught.

The Holy Spirit is our enabler to see the figures take shape, come to life in the scriptures where many can look but can not see.

Blessings, AJ

I am sure you believe that you are being led by the HS. Have you ever wondered why the HS would lead you in an opposite direction than He has led the Church founded by Christ for the last 2000 years?

many look and do not see what you do because we read scripture through the lens of Sacred Tradition (the teaching of the Apostles). This filter guides our perceptions so that we do not go off into unscriptural imagninations that depart from the Faith they committed once for all to the saints.