Sola Scriptura questions

[guanophore]

All this may or may not be true, but without some scriptural president, it becomes just another personal interpretation.

I think it goes even beyond that, into “vain imagining”. If it were an intrepretation, it would have a scriptural foundation, which he admits it does not.

I'm not saying that this is not expressed in scripture, but like any good Berean I have to seach the scriptures to see if these things be so.

The difference between you, Richard, and the “good Bereans” is that they received the Apostolic message with eagerness before they searched. You reject that message, so your search brings you to conclusions other than what the Apostels believed and taught.

Anyway this doesn’t answer the question
How does this help us gain eternal life and where do we find this principle in the bible?

Actually the scriptural references He gave to point the the principles where they are found in the Bible. God begins the creation of mankind with a marriage between man and woman. And at the end, human history concludes with the marriage supper of the Lamb. He turned Christ into a “bride” which is a mistake, but Jesus is our Bridegroom, and the Church is espoused to Him. To be saved is to be a member of His One Body, the Church, which is His Bride, and unity will be fully achieved and the end of the age.

 

[guanophore]

I would like to know how this spousal relationship that mirrors our relationship with Christ “can indeed help us attain eternal life” and what you use as a precident for this statement?

I don’t think you will be able to receive this teaching, since it comes from the Apostles, and your concept of salvation is not consistent with what the Apostles believed and saved.

 

[guanophore]

Asking you  "where is that in the Bible" is not "supporting a man-made tradition" IT'S A QUESTION.

Yes, it is a question, but it is based on an heretical assumption that all the doctrines of the faith must come from the Bible. This is a modern innovation that was created to reject the authority of the Church.

None of the Catholic doctrines come from the Bible. All of them were whole and entire before a word of the NT was ever written. Catholic doctrines come from Jesus, they are not extracted from the text of the NT.

How can a question support anything.

It is the other way around. The question is supported by the assumption. In this case, it is an erroneous assumption.

When I ask where is that in the bible what I want to know is where that is in the bible. I’m not making any kind of statement for some imaginary tradition.

You are making an assumption that all the doctrines of the faith must be found in the bible. It is not an “imaginary” tradition, but it is a human tradition. It is contrary to what the Apostles believed and taught, so Catholics must reject it. For us, it is part of “a different gospel” than the one we received from them. If we accept your premise, we are in danger of being “accursed”.

2Tim3
16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

It says here that scripture is able to instruct me in righteousness and show me how to be perfect. That’s good enough for me.

No, Richard, it does not say that. It says that scripture is “profitable” for instruction. The duty of instruction in the faith was given to the Church. It is to be conducted by Teachers that have been appointed and ordained by God. Teachers are one of the Gifts of the HS to the Church. In their hands, Scripture is profitable when they undertake the duty of instruction. The equipping of the saints is done by persons gifted and called to that ministry.

What you are doing is ignoring the Gifts and authority that God has given to the Church. The Scripture by itself does not equip the saints for the work of the ministry. this is part of the erroneous man made tradittions that came out of the Reformation. If it is enough for you, that is ok, because some people are satisfied with only part of the Truth. However, it is not enough for us, since we know better.

See it’s statements like this that force me to ask “where is that in the Bible” And don’t think that I am “supporting a man-made tradition” with this question.

Your lack of ability to recognize what you are doing does not alter the fact that you are doing it.

Here I have a problem
You don’t say spousal love is like the love expressed between the persons of the Godhead. You say** it is **this love.

And that is a problem because?

John 17:24
Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

Jesus here says that the Father loved Him before the foundation of the world, which means before the creation of man which means that the spousal love is not the love expressed in the Godhead.

You think God created us out of something other than His Love?\

would not your statement above be bringing the love expressed in the Godhead, a love that I know that I don’t understand, down to human love.

On the contrary, it brings us into the Divine Love, a love that we could not experience apart from grace.

I mean look at Jn. 3: 16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Can you say that you understand the love expressed here and this is God’s love for the world.

Why would one need to “understand”? It is a love that surpasses human understanding. It is this love that God has she abroad in our hearts, so that we can love Him, and others, and be partakers of His Divine Nature.

Now if we consider this love between the members of the Godhead, well it’s far beyond my reach, but to religate that love to sinful human restictions is unthinkable.

This sounds really profound, but I have no idea what it means. Please clarify.

Yes, definitely unthinkable, and profound. Do you not realize that the Divine Nature of God is something in which we partake by virtue of Baptism?

 

[guanophore]

You’re saying that scripture is not sufficient because people make mistakes?

Yes.

It is sufficient to lead us to Christ, but teaching and training in righteousness happen through the Church. Otherwise, everyone ends up with their own opinion and interpretation. What is right for one person is wrong for the next, for there is no infallible guide.

We need some common ground here and since I do not accept your churches tradition, the bible is it.

We can certainly make use of the Scripture,and have a meaningful discussion from it, but it will still have limitations, because you force Scripture into a role that was not intended for it. Since Catholics are forbidden by our Apostles to do this, even using Scripture will have limitations.

Well first of all my statement was "I do not accept **your** churches tradition" I didn't say I rejected all tradition, but tradition always must take a back seat to the word of God.

Perhaps you can direct us to the Scripture that teaches this?

 

[guanophore]

Everything that I need to gain eternal life I have read in the pages of the bible. Again the bible doesn't have to say that it contains everything I need in order for it to contain it.

What a tragedy, that the Son of God had to die a horrible death for nothing. All this time, you could find everything you needed in a book. Why didn’t God know?

If the Bible contains all that you need, why did He waste His time training Apostles for three years, and founding a useless Church?

Poor Jesus, He could have saved HImself a lot of trouble.

It’s the norm for my faith.

Actually, the norm for your faith is your interpretation. Others who interpret it differenlty have different norms, all based on the same Scripture, each in opposition to the other.

What is?

Your Bible that you think is all you need says that the Church is the pillar and foundation of the Truth.

Does that mean you're not going to tell me what it means?

I think there is really no point, Richard. Like you said, if you can’t accept the testimony that is in Scripture, there is nothing else you will accept. Scripture is clear that the Church is the Bride of Christ. Scripture is also clear that our salvation is not completed in this life, but you don’t believe that either.

 

[guanophore]

Jn.6
39And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

If these scriptures capture everything there is to know about salvation, then why does anyone need any training in righteousness at all? Why have reproof, or correction? Salvation is a done deal, so the rest of this is just unneeded sugar coating, is it not? This is what I meant when I said your concept of salvation is a departure from what the Apostles believed and taught. They did not think that all they needed for salvation is found in the Bible.

 

[look3467]

Did you find this in Scripture somewhere, or is this another of those extrabibilical traditions of man?>>>guanophore

You decide: Gen 41:32 And for that the dream was doubled unto Pharaoh twice; it is because the thing is established by God, and God will shortly bring it to pass.

If you keep this verse in mind when your doing your studies in scripture, you will began to see a new picture of things you had not seen before.

I notice you left out the third, where Jesus breathes the breath of Life upon the Church.

I left that up for you to bring it to attention .

All I can say is that you are being fed some very strange food in that non-denom of yours. Have you ever considered returning to the faith that was embraced by the Apostles?

Dear friend and bro/sis in Christ, I am at a place in point where I have been given insight into things which add more to the reality of God’s works in behalf of mankind, within the same words you and I read daily in the bible.

In God’s words are many mysteries of which God delights in our searching.

Want a verse ref? Pro 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

In Jesus are we not: Rev 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

I believe I do qualify to dig into the depths of His mysteries.

YOu know, that is EXACTLY what I was thinking!

Did I not know that when I wrote it?

I am glad to know that you are also aware that these are the products of your imagination.

What you may not know is that they represent a significant departure from the faith of the Apostles.

The faith of the Apostles are for those who at that time needed close guidance, due to the fact that many were Jewish conversts and were prone to return back to some of their Jewish traditions.

Not so with the Gentiles, for they eagerly accepted the teachings of Jesus via the Apostles.

Now, that the word of God is made whole in one book, the field is open to whomever the Holy Spirit calls.

2Th 3:5 And the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patient waiting for Christ.
Col 3:15 And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.
Rev 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
1Pe 5:10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.

All’s I see is God’s work in calling.

So, there is no departure from the word of God here, just from what you believe is, because of your point of view.

But we do share the same Christ as one in spirit that dwells in our hearts, yet, different in our views.

It is good you know this. It may be a beginning to get you back o n the road to orthodox Christianity.

Scriptures allude to in many instant’s ,otherwise, a literal interpretation would mean that there was really a whale, (may or may not have been) the message is what is key.

I am sure you believe that you are being led by the HS. Have you ever wondered why the HS would lead you in an opposite direction than He has led the Church founded by Christ for the last 2000 years?

Now, that is an interesting question! Are we to question the Holy Spirit’s calling by our limiting Him to our point of view?

Does the words Pharisees and Sadducee come to mind?

many look and do not see what you do because we read scripture through the lens of Sacred Tradition (the teaching of the Apostles). This filter guides our perceptions so that we do not go off into unscriptural imagninations that depart from the Faith they committed once for all to the saints.

That is all well and good.

I have what is needed for my Salvation already acquired in Jesus. What is left is my growing in His spirit towards spiritual maturity.

Does not the Holy Spirit know what it is in my spirit that needs prompting to where I may experience, know and understand deeper truth?

The Holy Spirit will not have anyone limit Him from performing to whomever, but is free to whomever as God see’s fit.

I am one that can stand on the firm foundation of Christ as a mature spiritual soul without fear of endangering my salvation, because I know in His hands, I will not fall.

I pursue the depth, length and height of His mysteries as my personal gain and meditation.

I delight in them and give nothing by glory where glory is due Him, and many times, it is just amazing, awesome and wonderful just hos loving God is.

Blessings, AJ

 

[guanophore]

Well, Ben I’m not going to derail this thread any longer. You have my view on what Jesus was doing in Matt.16, I will comment no further on it. If you believe that you are saved by entering the CC, the only thing I can do is pray that the Spirit of the living God convert your heart and bring you to the knowledge of Jesus and what He, not a church, has done for you.

This is another modern innovation that represents a major departure from the Apostlic faith. You see, the Apostles taught that Jesus did not distinguish Himself from His One Body, the Church. All who becomed members of Him, become members of His Church. Therefore, no one is saved outside of His Church, since there is no other name under heaven by which we may be saved but the One who is the Head.

What yo are suggesting is that the Church is a headless body, or decapitated body, or that Jesus has no Body on earth.

 

[guanophore]

Sola Scriptura is not taught in the Bible.

That is why we call it a self refuting doctrine.

 

[look3467]

If these scriptures capture everything there is to know about salvation, then why does anyone need any training in righteousness at all? Why have reproof, or correction? Salvation is a done deal, so the rest of this is just unneeded sugar coating, is it not? This is what I meant when I said your concept of salvation is a departure from what the Apostles believed and taught. They did not think that all they needed for salvation is found in the Bible.

then why does anyone need any training in righteousness at all?

If the cart represented the converted spirit of the soul, the horse the works, one cannot put the cart before the horse.

The souls spirit must first be drawn by the Holy Spirit (called), convereting the souls spirit, then the works follow.

Why have reproof, or correction?

Not a mature adult yet spiritually.

A child needs the guidance of it’s parents such and until the child has grown towards a more mature state, by which then the young adult has to learn it’s own way into the word of God.

The adult no longer needs the guidance of the parents as a child, but rather have instilled within the remembrances of those guidelines as thier own as their moral code.

Salvation is a done deal, so the rest of this is just unneeded sugar coating, is it not?

If you understood the works of God, yes, salvation is a done deal. “It is finished”.
Now working (exercising) the gift that is in us towards conforming the body be governed not by the physical desire (which is of old) but by the spiritual desire. (which is the new).

concept of salvation is a departure from what the Apostles believed and taught.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Rom 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Not to take glory away from God’s works, Abraham is brought into the light so that we may understand who it is that is the granter of salvation.

Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

How much clear can that not be made, that the death of Jesus is the righteousness of God granted us, as a work of God and not mankind.

So the old, which was death and condemnation was nailed to the cross, as dead.

Thereby, anyone believing in Jesus by faith is reckoned with Jesus as righteous, without sin, for sin has been freed from us, as in the following verse:

Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. (Now go figure, just what sin is it talking about?)

Clue: Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Sin has no grasp in derailing our salvation, for it is a work of God.

Sin does, if we let it, will destroy us, but not the souls’ spirit, for it belongs to God.

Blessings, AJ

 

[look3467]

Quote:
Originally Posted by WHOWHIE forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
Sola Scriptura is not taught in the Bible.

That is why we call it a self refuting doctrine.

Of course not!

The words were conjured up in defense of the established view.

But, leaving those words out, one can find to be led to salvation via the pages of the bible.

If that is the case, then, the bible is sufficient to lead anyone to the Lord.

Blessings, AJ

 

[onenow1]

Of course not!

The words were conjured up in defense of the established view.

But, leaving those words out, one can find to be led to salvation via the pages of the bible.

If that is the case, then, the bible is sufficient to lead anyone to the Lord.

Blessings, AJ

Balderdash ! Some Protestants believe in the Trnity, some don’t, some believe in real presence, some believe it to be a symbol, some believe in faith alone and some don’t,
some say divorce is ok, some don’t. I could go on and on.

Individual Catholics also reject some truths that does not conform to their lifestyle but in their heart of hearts most know the fullness of Truth, is in Christs Body that is the Catholic Church. The bottom line is Sola Scriptura, is a vehicle that can let Christ conform to meism, rather then the other way around.:twocents:

God Bless
onenow1

 

[look3467]

Balderdash ! Some Protestants believe in the Trnity, some don’t, some believe in real presence, some believe it to be a symbol, some believe in faith alone and some don’t,
some say divorce is ok, some don’t. I could go on and on.>>>onenow1

So…you believe that those things the love of God can not overcome?

Just exactly what is it that you would want God to place limits on?

Individual Catholics also reject some truths that does not conform to their lifestyle

Agreed…as is with any other religious belief, not counting.

but in their heart of hearts most know the fullness of Truth

Unless the Holy Spirit convicts, one is left to one’s own desires.

, is in Christs Body that is the Catholic Church.

The bottom line is Sola Scriptura, is a vehicle that can let Christ conform to meism,

The scriptures themselves point to Jesus period.

What you do with that is up to you.

Nobody but you and God are responsible for your own soul.

If God is not big enough to save to the utter most, than He is limited.

Count it blessed that you and I, however we came to know Jesus as our personal Savior, are in the membership of His heavenly kingdom, not yet so apparent because we are yet in the flesh.

Blessings, AJ

 

[PRmerger]

Actually v.18 does not “encapsulate” the chapter.

Richard, in your paradigm you have not the liberty to tell benedictus, or any Christian, what a verse in Scripture means. In your paradigm, if the Holy Spirit spoke to her and told her this, is she not correct?

Or are you saying that there is an authentic interpreter of Scripture?

 

[onenow1]

So…you believe that those things the love of God can not overcome?

God has overcome all things,we must take up our cross as He did.

Just exactly what is it that you would want God to place limits on?

God has given His word through His Church then scripture under the guidance of the Holy Spirit; and .I might add His commands to follow.

Agreed…as is with any other religious belief, not counting.

Yes !

Unless the Holy Spirit convicts, one is left to one’s own desires.

One is always left to there own devices. I suspect Adam and Eve were convicted or did God wit hold His Spirit ?

The scriptures themselves point to Jesus period.

And Jesus points to the Father and the Spirit. and His Church. Matt. 16: 16-18.

What you do with that is up to you.

Yes !

Nobody but you and God are responsible for your own soul.

Yes,Jesus tells us this the road is narrow and so we must stay on it.

If God is not big enough to save to the utter most, than He is limited.

He is not limited, he has shown the way with much patients.

Count it blessed that you and I, however we came to know Jesus as our personal Savior, are in the membership of His heavenly kingdom, not yet so apparent because we are yet in the flesh.

Jesus came in the flesh to save us, our spirit{soul} is part of our nature,separated at death the body, will be rejoined when He comes again.Jesus said this: I >commend my Spirit{soul}to you Father.3 days later Body and Soul.

God Blessizza:

 

[PRmerger]

Everything that I need to gain eternal life I have read in the pages of the bible.

Yes, Scripture is materially sufficient, but not formally sufficient.

Again the bible doesn’t have to say that it contains everything I need in order for it to contain it.

I will remind you of this statement whenever you question Catholic teachings. May I use your reasoning as well?

RK: Where does the Bible talk about ?
PR: The Bible doesn’t have to say that it contains in order for us to believe it.

Wow, perfect is not “GOOD ENOUGH” for you?

You said that the Bible was good enough to show you how to be perfect.*Totally *different from your statement above. I know that I would never accept “it’s good enough” from my spouse, when it comes to our relationship.

It says here that scripture is able to instruct me in righteousness and show me how to be perfect. That’s good enough for me

It’s the norm for my faith.

That’s fine. But it’s a non-Scriptural paradigm. You can’t, then, accuse Catholics of believing something not found in the Bible.

What is?

[BIBLEDRB]1 Tim 3:15[/BIBLEDRB]

Does that mean you’re not going to tell me what it means?

Of course. That’s why you’re here, isn’t it?

But you’ve just been given a thimble of this Ocean of Profundity. I think you have no idea what you’re getting into.

 

[PRmerger]

but salvation is not attained by joining any church.

That is very Catholic of you to say that!

It is attained by faith in Jesus and through that faith we automatically become a member of His Church.

No, Richard. It is attained through accepting the Divine Marriage Proposal.

 

[look3467]

One is always left to there own devices. I suspect Adam and Eve were convicted or did God wit hold His Spirit ?

Well…interesting you should bring that up.

You suppose God wanted them to be left to their own devices? If He didn’t, then why place a tree by which they would fall by?

Why had God not withheld the tree of knowledge of good and evil and instead left the tree of life?

If He would have left the tree of life instead, would you still think that Adam and Eve would have been left to their own devices?

Without knowledge of good and evil, how then, can one be convicted of anything?

Obviously, the Holy Spirit did convict them after knowledge had been gained, since now they saw themselves naked of the truth.

In other words, they were deceived, not willfully, but by design.

The design factors in when the conscience finds itself short of the truth causing one to seek something higher than self to find comfort, peace of mind and help in times of hurt.

The truth? As gods of their own lives, find themselves without power to overcome the world they were placed in.

God knew that all along, that is why He withheld the tree of life, for the time when He God would offer His sacrifice for the redemption of all mankind.

Out of all that is what you now see, as all that mankind has achieved both religiously and non religiously.

God did His works, finished them, and now it is up to us to accept His works as ours, and learn to conform our lives to His desires.

You probably not understand anything I said.

Blessings, AJ

 

[look3467]

Jesus came in the flesh to save us, our spirit{soul} is part of our nature,separated at death the body, will be rejoined when He comes again.Jesus said this: I >commend my Spirit{soul}to you Father.3 days later Body and Soul.

Just…like that?

You mean, I don’t have to do anything?

I though that I had to belong to the right church and then maybe.

Now it is quote “Jesus came in the flesh to save us, our spirit”?

If that is the case my friend, you and I are in perfect agreement!

Blessings, AJ

Oh, I like Hawaiian pizza, u know, pineapple and ham?

 

[WHOWHIE]

Of course not!

The words were conjured up in defense of the established view.

The established view. That must be the view that was established by the Church that Christ established.

Why would anyone want to change the established view almost two centuries old and dating back to the apostles? That would certainly fall into the category “man made doctrine”