Sola Scriptura questions

[gtrenewed]

Not one mention of the word hell in that post?
#384
Blessings, AJ

Are you kidding me?

Your exact words…that are highlighted in a quote box…my post 384…your post 311

"So, my friend, I could take you into depths of which you may find yourself lost in understanding and would probably, most likely, condemn me to eternal hell."

How can you deny that?

 

[guanophore]

My Strongs concordance book and various translations of Scripture in print form never gave me a virus.

I love Strongs.

 We disagree about baptism's role in the life of the believer.

I would just say that John and Jesus were using publicly available water.

I think this is very clear in the text.

This does not explain the Ethiopian eunuch or Paul being baptized nor any of the others in Acts nor how we generally baptize today.

It seems like the Eunuch and Phillip “went down into the water” which leaves one with the impression that they entered a stream deep enough for immersion.

The text does not have detail about the baptism of Saul/Paul, but since he was persecuting the Church, you have the impression they did this in hiding.

When I look at the Acts portion of the picture, how the people acted, the public display explanation falls apart.

Thisi s actually a modern American fundamentalist innovation that is about 200 years old. It is a way of explaining why baptism was removed from it’s Apostolic roots and meaning, and infusing it with an alternative meaning.

Since the Church was under persecution for the first 300 years, the disciples met and conducted their activities in hiding to avoid being put to death. Not that some believers did not embrace martyrdom joyfully, as they did, but why get baptized in “public” if there was someone waiting by the font to take you to the lions? The testimony of the catacombs is very strong on this point, also. Why worship down in the tombs if you don’t need to hide?

Jesus had these things in the physical. We identify with Jesus as we walk as His disciple. In Romans 6:4 Paul is explaining how we initially, physically walk the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus and this is from the Father’s perspective - water baptism.

This is what the Apostles believed and taught.

That is why it should be a believers baptism, not a ritual washing to scrub away sins from anybody undergoing it.

This, however, is not. In fact, what you have stated here is OPPOSITE of what the Scriptures indicate. Baptism is, indeed, the “washing of regeneration” It is not to scrub dirt from the body, but to wash away sins, and enable us to present a clean conscience toward God. This action is accomplished by the Holy Spirit, who performs the 'circumcision made without hands" upon our hearts.

 

[guanophore]

If this is an example of deep, you need to come up for air! The Scriptures you use for the basis of this theory fall apart when you compare them against one another.

While this identifies us with the Trinity, it is wrong to try to equate a certain part of us to a certain member of the Trinity.

If yiou ever read any early Gnostic writings, I think you will recognize the genre here.

 

[look3467]

Quote:
Originally Posted by look3467 forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
*Works of God.
A. Creator
1, Beginnings of creation
2. The fall of mankind in His creation.
3. His judgment on the fall.
4. His punishment.

B. Savior

1. Became as one of us, introduction of Jesus
2. Took the sins of the world in our behalf = Fallen
3. Was judged as fallen and penalty issued
4. Punishment meted, death on the cross.

Those are God’s works defined in the whole of His word.*

It’s peculiar that you cited not a single Scripture verse to support your claim.

But, ok. I have no argument with those things listed being the Works of God and Works of the Savior. (Except for the part about Jesus being “judged as fallen”–yikes!)

It’s all there.

1. Creator - Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2. Fall - Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
3. Judgment - Gen 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
   Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
   Gen 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
   Gen 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
   Gen 3:18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
   Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Punishment- Gen 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
Gen 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

Some questions one ought to question when one has advanced in knowledge, learning and understandings of spiritual things.

1.Was it possible for Adam to have gained knowledge without becoming “as one of us”?

2.Was this a designed flaw? Not a flaw in God’s part, for everything God created was perfect; so in this case, the designed flaw was perfect in every way.
It was a flaw that would be corrected at a later time evidenced by the coming of Jesus, of which again, all things being made perfect.

3.When God says quote: Joh 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. The question is, was the world lost, as already judged and the death sentence already past that needed no more judgment but saving? As per that verse?

Does that not fall in line with what has transpired in the four steps above needing remedy?

You see, reading the bible as a story book is one thing, but extracting the spiritual message from it is another. One’s opening of the spiritual eyes via the revelation of the Holy Spirit gives us understandings into the workings of God as a positive nature and not one where God is viewed as a tyrant, mean and condemning God.

Now as for this part:

But, ok. I have no argument with those things listed being the Works of God and Works of the Savior. (Except for the part about Jesus being “judged as fallen”–yikes!)

This is the, I say THE most important thing in the whole of the bible, that we, those who have interest in the mysteries of God, understand just what took place in the remedy of the salvation of the world.

For really and truly, this is the point where life really begins, not with Adam, but with Jesus.
With Adam death was the sentence, but with Jesus life is the antidote.
In Adam: Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

In Jesus: Rom 5:17 For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

Continued on the next post------------------------

 

[look3467]

Continued from the last post-----------------------------------
So life begins with Jesus! Otherwise, we’re dead meat!

Now, let’s address what we don’t like to think and that is what did it take in order for salvation to abound?

Just who was willing to take the fall for all of mankind? I mean, taking the fall would mean a complete and utter destruction of that persons soul forever from the presences of God.

Is there some one willing? Let’s see: Isa 6:8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.

Who is me? Who but God can forgive sins?

Now, we can see that “send me” is the one who volunteered to take the fall at the cost of His soul.

There are some questions one ought to ask about this, and one basic question is, did the person who volunteered know what was His plight at the end of this job?

Here is the answer: Isa 42:19 Who is blind, but my servant? or deaf, as my messenger that I sent? who is blind as he that is perfect, and blind as the LORD’S servant?

Ahhhh…Jesus born of a women in the flesh is blind and deaf to the things of God and is only given to know what the Father reveals to Him here, read: Joh 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

Jesus has to be in everyway much like as we are, so that He in the power of God can overcome all for us in order to liberate us from all of it.

Here is the ugly part.
Recall this verse: Lev 3:1 And if his oblation be a sacrifice of peace offering, if he offer it of the herd; whether it be a male or female, he shall offer it without blemish before the LORD.

Jesus, the lamb of God is without blemish, perfect in every way, giving Himself up for an offering of peace between heaven and earth.

Who but the ones elected to process the offerings: Lev 3:5 And Aaron’s sons shall burn it on the altar (Calvary) upon the burnt sacrifice, which is upon the wood (Cross) that is on the fireThe Holy Spirit fire) it is an offering made by fire, (Spiritual) of a sweet savour unto the LORD.

OK, I guess now we have to face the ugly truth. What is the term used for one who can not be forgiven, not matter what? Perdition?

Joh 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

We traditionally understand that Judas is the individual named here: Joh 17:12 -

None of them is lost, but the son of perdition. God had given him twelve; he had kept them in the name of the Father, and only one was lost, Judas, the traitor, the son of perdition, which the Scripture had predicted. See Psa_41:9.

But please, do not close your minds to question this, for the answer lies in the last part of the verse: Jophn 17:12…“that the scripture might be fulfilled”.

The scripture predicted a betrayal, but could not be fulfilled until Jesus. So Judas, like the High priests fall under the the cry of Jesus at the cross “Father forgive them for they know not what they do”.

If they know not what they do, then they must have been about their fathers business, which was given to them by Moses.

The real son of perdition here is the one who volunteered to lose His soul to gain the world to God.

Is the crucifixion of Christ not the ugliest thing there is, I mean read:Read the chapter in Psalms 22. and see it you can not feel what Christ was going through.

Also, 2Sa 7:14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity,(Iniquity was found in Him) I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:

Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

You see, the sacrificial lamb of God had to be without blemish, perfect, otherwise, the high priest could not use the lamb.

Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

In other words, He has to become our iniquity in order to forgive us.

In order than for the sins of the world were to be forgiven, one, the one who would take them away would have to take them upon Himself as a lamb of sacrifice in order to reconcile the world back to the Father.

Now we come to the same four steps of mankind by which also Jesus must thread and must finish the job. Which He did to the glory of the Father.

God never intended for Jesus should rest in hell read: Psa 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

All that, that you read, is the works of God.

Blessings, AJ

 

[look3467]

Are you kidding me?

Your exact words…that are highlighted in a quote box…my post 384…your post 311

"So, my friend, I could take you into depths of which you may find yourself lost in understanding and would probably, most likely, condemn me to eternal hell."

How can you deny that?

OK, your right. I apologize for not seeing it. I know for a fact that if I did say a few things that I understand would meet with condemnation, from you maybe not, but from many others yes.

The reason I said that was not in arrogance, but to try to give reason for my foreign views that can lead to opening up of the mind set.

If one belongs to a particular religious belief, then one is bound by those beliefs. But if one does not belong to any religious belief, than one is free to explore all possibilities, of which I am.

Blessings, AJ

 

[look3467]

The text does not have detail about the baptism of Saul/Paul, but since he was persecuting the Church, you have the impression they did this in hiding>>>guanophore.

Are we assuming here…hmmmm… I thought we weren’t allowed to think outside the box, only what are told to believe?

Just thought I’d mention that.

Blessings, AJ

 

[PRmerger]

If one belongs to a particular religious belief, then one is bound by those beliefs. But if one does not belong to any religious belief, than one is free to explore all possibilities, of which I am.

Blessings, AJ

One is bound by Truth, not a particular religious belief.

Now, to the degree that one separates oneself from the Truth as proclaimed by the Apostles is the degree that one is in error.

 

[PRmerger]

Are we assuming here…hmmmm… I thought we weren’t allowed to think outside the box, only what are told to believe?

Just thought I’d mention that.

Blessings, AJ

We are bound by fides quarens intellectum.

You are mistaken if you think that we believe only what we are told to believe.

 

[gtrenewed]

This, however, is not. In fact, what you have stated here is OPPOSITE of what the Scriptures indicate. Baptism is, indeed, the “washing of regeneration” It is not to scrub dirt from the body, but to wash away sins, and enable us to present a clean conscience toward God. This action is accomplished by the Holy Spirit, who performs the 'circumcision made without hands" upon our hearts.

I agree because that is based in Scripture; however, I did not explain myself very well. This is what happens to the believer but not just to anyone being baptized such as an infant or anyone baptized without faith in the Gospel.

The free gifts of God’s Grace and Faith to believe the Gospel is what gives entrance into the Kingdom of Heaven. Baptism continues the process of discipleship, it does not initiate it. To baptize an infant, it seems to me, comes from lack of faith in the mercy of God. The mercy of God covers the aborted, the dead at birth, and all children up to an age that they can receive the Gospel; just as God’s grace covers all people until they come to faith.

 

[gtrenewed]

OK, your right. I apologize for not seeing it. I know for a fact that if I did say a few things that I understand would meet with condemnation, from you maybe not, but from many others yes.

The reason I said that was not in arrogance, but to try to give reason for my foreign views that can lead to opening up of the mind set.

If one belongs to a particular religious belief, then one is bound by those beliefs. But if one does not belong to any religious belief, than one is free to explore all possibilities, of which I am.

Blessings, AJ

Thanks for seeking that out. Although, only the Word of God can condemn you!

You are safer if you give your views where other people of God can give it scrutiny. Remember, Scripture says that there is safety in a multitude of counselers.

I don’t fault you for seeking out more of the kingdom. Any believer that settles for the basic tenets of faith and does not seek the kingdom further risks being deceived and even, perhaps, falling away.

All believers are bound by Scripture and in the multitude of Scriptural counselers you should present your views.

When I feel I have found something in Scripture, I bounce it off of various believers. If they agree that my discovery is not Scriptural then I back off that view until I get further understanding and can re-submit that view. Remember, we do not want to teach or listen as one who has itching ears; but, we want to seek out sincerely the things of the Spirit.

 

[look3467]

We are bound by fides quarens intellectum.

You are mistaken if you think that we believe only what we are told to believe.

You mean the Berean way of looking at things? Can you reason outside that box?

I am not constrained by any one view, thus I can reason without limitations, able to see from the outside in.

Blessings, AJ

 

[PRmerger]

You mean the Berean way of looking at things?

I give a big to the “Berean way of looking at things”. However, how does one get from there to fides quaerens intellectum? That’s more like the Augustinian or Aquinan way of looking at things.

Can you reason outside that box?

Reason outside the box of searching the OT? Huh?

I am not constrained by any one view, thus I can reason without limitations, able to see from the outside in.

Blessings, AJ

Good for you, AJ. However, one can state he’s not constrained by the view of gravity, and then walk outside a 5th story window…and we can see what would happen if he thinks he’s not constrained by that view.

 

[look3467]

Quote:
Originally Posted by look3467 forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
You mean the Berean way of looking at things?

I give a big to the “Berean way of looking at things”. However, how does one get from there to fides quaerens intellectum? That’s more like the Augustinian or Aquinan way of looking at things.

You have your way and I have mine.

The point should be that we be of the same spirit as God, regardless of our beliefs.
Was not Jesus’ arms outstretched, and nailed in that position?

Quote:
Can you reason outside that box?
Reason outside the box of searching the OT? Huh?

Absolutely, my friend!

The Father is the one who created the whole to start with represented by what is, and the Jewish people having been given the burden to carry His laws as a show to the world.(The old Testament)

Jesus, is also God the creator but as a Son, and son of man for representation, and to again recreate the world into a new world, one in which there would be no end.(The new Testament)

Now we have yet another creation, and that is you and I, as new creatures of Jesus’ creation as the third creation.

Now, if you can dispute that, then you are not thinking outside a “set box”.

There are many “set Boxes” which limit one to a particular way of looking at things, but if one is “free”, then there are no set boxes and are able to see from the outside in with a clear understanding. So is my opinion.

Blessings, AJ

 

[PRmerger]

The point should be that we be of the same spirit as God, regardless of our beliefs.

That is a nonsensical statement. Being of the same spirit cannot be “regardless of our beliefs”. Being of the same spirit means in* unity* in one’s beliefs.

Now we have yet another creation, and that is you and I, as new creatures of Jesus’ creation as the third creation.

Indeed. This occurs at baptism, in which we become “new creations”.

There are many “set Boxes” which limit one to a particular way of looking at things, but if one is “free”, then there are no set boxes and are able to see from the outside in with a clear understanding. So is my opinion.

Blessings, AJ

Freedom apart from Truth is an illusory freedom.

We are made holy by obedience to the truth.

[SIGN]Since you have purified yourselves by obedience to the truth for sincere mutual love, love one another intensely from a (pure) heart.-1 Peter 1:22[/SIGN]

 

[look3467]

That is a nonsensical statement. Being of the same spirit cannot be “regardless of our beliefs”. Being of the same spirit means in* unity* in one’s beliefs.

You believe in God as I. You believe in the Son of God as I. You believe in His Holy Spirit as I.
Then we are of the same spirit, that being of God.

Now, because we choose to worship God in our own ways, makes us different, yet we worship the same God.

One can not worship God without His spirit being one with us: Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

If the spirit of God dwells in us: Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Are we not in agreement there?

Freedom apart from Truth is an illusory freedom.

Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

We are made holy by obedience to the truth.

No argument there.

Blessings, AJ

 

[PRmerger]

look3467:

Are we not in agreement there?

Here is where we (as in you and the thousand of other Christian denominations which have departed from the faith left to us by the Apostles) are not in agreement:

Baptism
Rapture
Tongues (some believe others are not saved if they don’t speak in tongues)
Divorce
Abortion
Homosexuality
When to celebrate the Lord’s Day
Once saved, always saved
Music or no music (Singing or no singing)
Women pastors, no women pastors
Hell, or no hell
The Eucharist (Communion)
Sola scriptura/private interpretation
Ordination
Trinity vs. Unitarianism
Death/Soul Sleep
Church leadership, or no leadership
Head coverings or no head coverings
Health and wealth gospel
Drinking allowed, drinking not allowed)
Attend weekly services, don’t have to go to Church
Judge others, don’t judge others
What’s a sin, what is not a sin
Charity or no charity (help one another or let them help
themselves)
Is God‘s Holy Name Jehovah
Predestination



All of those departures/disagreements have arisen from an individual feeling the liberty to read the Scriptures and interpret it as he has determined. He becomes his own pope and magisterium

Just what the devil ordered, IMHO. :sad_yes:

 

[PRmerger]

Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

Amen!

Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Amen!
*
Truth enlightens man’s intelligence and shapes his freedom, leading him to know and love the Lord*.–Pope JPII

 

[look3467]

Here is where we (as in you and the thousand of other Christian denominations which have departed from the faith left to us by the Apostles) are not in agreement:

Baptism
Rapture
Tongues (some believe others are not saved if they don’t speak in tongues)
Divorce
Abortion
Homosexuality
When to celebrate the Lord’s Day
Once saved, always saved
Music or no music (Singing or no singing)
Women pastors, no women pastors
Hell, or no hell
The Eucharist (Communion)
Sola scriptura/private interpretation
Ordination
Trinity vs. Unitarianism
Death/Soul Sleep
Church leadership, or no leadership
Head coverings or no head coverings
Health and wealth gospel
Drinking allowed, drinking not allowed)
Attend weekly services, don’t have to go to Church
Judge others, don’t judge others
What’s a sin, what is not a sin
Charity or no charity (help one another or let them help
themselves)
Is God‘s Holy Name Jehovah
Predestination



All of those departures/disagreements have arisen from an individual feeling the liberty to read the Scriptures and interpret it as he has determined. He becomes his own pope and magisterium

Just what the devil ordered, IMHO. :sad_yes:

What have all those things to do with salvation? Absolutely nothing? Why do I say that?

Because salvation is a free gift and nothing to do with all those things you mentioned.

Now, all those things are issues that the church (Believers in Christ [Christians]) have to deal with as a matter of growing in the faith towards a the stature that of Christ.

Salvation is a free gift, meriting no work on our part, for if we rest in Jesus, our Sabbath, we are free from work.

Having being granted salvation as a free gift, we can now take it and work with it to the betterment of our faith, growing spiritually with power that resides in us over the overcoming of the power of this world to destroy us.

So, the issues have many opinions as to how to deal with each and every one of them, according to the various denominational beliefs.

But salvation is unto all for denominational beliefs factor not into what is a work of God, and that is the granting of God’s righteousness to us.

Blessings, AJ

 

[look3467]

PRmerger;
My apologies, I have no way of knowing gender by the signature names.
Thank you for informing me, I should be careful to keep that in mind.
I don’t look at peoples profiles necessarily, just on what they say.
I judge not, only on what people say.

My initials are AJ, definitely a male.

Blessings, AJ