Sola Scriptura -- what is the actual authority?

[Michael16]

Saint Paul was teaching against works only theology in Romans.

Your quote of Romans 3:23-24 is understandable to a degree. However, these two verses do not support Sola Fide. They say that every man falls short and requires the grace of Christ. They however do not explicitly eliminate the doing of the Law in Romans 2:13.

Your quoting of Romans 3:20 is taken out of the it’s not works alone theology context of Saint Paul’s teaching. Man cannot be saved by works alone as Luther correctly understood. The problem arises when Luther’s reading directly conflicts with Saint James 2:24.

The unavoidable contextual reading conflict between Luther’s reading of Romans 3:28 versus Romans 2:13 and Saint James 2:24 remains unsatisfactorily resolved. You see, Saint Paul himself refuted the use of Romans 3:28 taken out of context with Romans 2:13.

Your statement on trusting fully in Christ is correct, mcq. We must fully trust in Christ; for without Him; we can do nothing.

However, as I’ve demonstrated that works are as necessary as faith in the economy of salvation; it renders any faith only salvation untenable.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Strict Merit was outlawed at the council of Trent – saying i did something, now God, you owe me something.

Anytime you hear the word ‘merit’ being tossed around in the Catholic Church it refers to conduit merit. Our works are merely a response to his grace given and to Him be the glory for all of it.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Jesus own Words according to Matthew should be a strong indicator that works better be a part of your body of a work as a Christian on your judgment day:

41 “Then the King will turn to those on the left and say, ‘Away with you, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his demons.[d] 42 For I was hungry, and you didn’t feed me. I was thirsty, and you didn’t give me a drink. 43 I was a stranger, and you didn’t invite me into your home. I was naked, and you didn’t give me clothing. I was sick and in prison, and you didn’t visit me.

 

[Michael16]

Amen, Lenten. Add to that the passage in which Our Lord states that only those who do the Will of the Father will enter Heaven.

Do is a verb that requires action.

 

[Michael16]

Amen, Lenten. Our Lord Himself said that only those who do the Will of the Father will enter heaven.

Do is a verb that is an action.

That alone directly refutes any faith only theology and should satisfy the strictest Sola Scriptura reading; IMHO

 

[Michael16]

Jon, we’re not saying that Luther denies the necessity of works in salvation. What the issue is that Luther says salvation by faith alone, a faith that requires works; yet it’s still faith alone that saves.

How can that be satisfactorily resolved?

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Both sides agree that a true convert will demonstrate it with works.

And we also agree a person can be saved without works as the thief on the cross was.

However, the thief is the exception and not the norm.

And I think Paul is describing worldly Christians in 1 Cor 3:15. People who had faith/works but not enough of it. So thank you Jesus for purgatory as, contrary to our protestant critic’s belief, it is a demonstration of God’s great grace and desire that he has to have us join him in heaven – even if we are not exactly meeting the standards set for us.

 

[Michael16]

Amen, Lenten. Purgatory is the antechamber to heaven where I’m cleaned of my attachments to sin so that I may enter heaven. So: Why paint purgatory as a horrible place?

As for Protestant criticism: The thing is that the real problem in the 16th century Church wasn’t doctrinal or somehow the Church was intrinsically evil and needed to be “ reformed “.

The problem was in practice, discipline, ill trained clergy, ill catechized laypeople, absentee bishops and corruption. Modern Protestant catechesis doesn’t cover this. It only paints Luther and the other Protestant leaders as angry men who sought to purge the Church of problems whose solutions were rejected.

 

[Michael16]

My statement on modern Protestant catechesis rests on my talk with my 15 year old Lutheran niece. Granted, she’s ELCA; but I trust her views as she demonstrates a good head on her shoulders.

Something else I just thought of: She’s Confirmed. From what I was able to glean from the curriculum of her Confirmation class; there’s serious holes in what these children are being taught.

Like for instance: She was unaware of Luther’s vile words and name calling against the Holy Father and the Church. She was unaware that the Protestant leaders were invited to the Council of Trent.

I’m reasonably sure that these children weren’t taught Luther’s dark side: His anti Semitism, his advocation of killing German peasants rising against the princes that Luther relied upon for support.

As well as: She was unaware of Luther’s Marian devotion and the later theologians’ elimination of it from Lutheran theology as too Catholic.

It’s sad.

 

[JonNC]

Jon, we’re not saying that Luther denies the necessity of works in salvation. What the issue is that Luther says salvation by faith alone, a faith that requires works; yet it’s still faith alone that saves.

How can that be satisfactorily resolved?

I have a significant level of agreement with what @Lenten_ashes just posted, even the part about Purgatory if it is understood as Pope Benedict describes it.

From the JDDJ:

15.In faith we together hold the conviction that justification is the work of the triune God. The Father sent his Son into the world to save sinners. The foundation and presupposition of justification is the incarnation, death, and resurrection of Christ. Justification thus means that Christ himself is our righteousness, in which we share through the Holy Spirit in accord with the will of the Father. Together we confess: By grace alone, in faith in Christ’s saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping and calling us to good works.[11]

Amen.

 

[JonNC]

I’m reasonably sure that these children weren’t taught Luther’s dark side: His anti Semitism, his advocation of killing German peasants rising against the princes that Luther relied upon for support,

Are young Catholics taught in catechetical class about the almost systemic anti-Judaism of the Church in Europe at that time? or about the brutal treatment of the Anabaptists by Catholics and Lutherans, or the practice of burning at the stake defended by the 15 and 16 century Catholic Church?
I would hope not.

 

[Michael16]

I never spoke on the Anabaptists or the burning at the stake issues. The rest of the quote block; I agree.

 

[JonNC]

As well as: She was unaware of Luther’s Marian devotion and the later theologians’ elimination of it from Lutheran theology as too Catholic.

Catechetical class is not a college course on Luther or his theology. It is about the basic teachings of the Lutheran tradition within the Church. The Small Catechism is typically the main text used. It’s purpose is to instruct in basic teaching, not Luther’s personal piety about the Blessed Virgin.

That said, I sometimes wish they did.

 

[JonNC]

I never spoke on the Anabaptists or the burning at the stake issues. The rest of the quote block; I agree.

I apologize. When I completed my post, i places it in the wrong place. I fixed it.

 

[Michael16]

Don’t put words I didn’t write in a quote block, dude.

Now, the Church has dealt with the witch/heretic burning era. We admit the evil of that time.

However; that doesn’t free the Lutherans from glossing over the darkness of the their founder.

Now, the main reason for stating on this matter is to illustrate that the value of Luther’s understanding is shown by his fruits. Did Luther demonstrate, by his fruits; that his understanding and teaching leads people to growth in holiness? In his own life; definitely no.

 

[Michael16]

No problem, dude.

Btw, I’m impressed with your statement on Our Lady. Cool. A tradition without a strong Mariology is quite a strange and dry tradition.

If I can return the thread to the main issue: I’m wondering what you mean by agreeing with Lenten?

Lenten has stated that the thief on the cross was the exception. I grant that.

Here’s the other question:

What about Our Lord’s statement that only those who do the Will of the Father will enter heaven? To me, it’s pretty straightforward: Do is a verb and a verb is an action.

Please, don’t get me wrong: I’m not advocating that man commands by his works or any other works only theology. All I’m saying is that works are required.

 

[HopkinsReb]

Sola fide does not deny the necessity of good works.

Part of this is a terminology problem. It’s pretty reasonable for Catholics to read “scripture alone” and think it means, well, scripture alone. Likewise for “faith alone.” And the amount of ink spilled by the Reformers inveighing against works (some being hyperbolic for effect, others actually thinking our works are all completely bad or worthless) doesn’t help the confusion.

 

[De_Maria]

De_Maria:

Romans 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

“By the deeds of the law shall no flesh be justified” Romans 3: 20

All have sinned and come short of the glory of God: being justified freely by his grace that is in Jesus ( was the only doer of the Law?). Rom3 :23/24

“Therefore we conclude a man is justified by faith, without the deeds of the law…now we have the law of faith” Rom 3:28

So, you’re pitting one Scripture against another. You believe that those you quoted are right and the Romans 2:13 is wrong. But the Catholic Church accepts them, all.

I examined this topic ad nauseum over the years. It really seems like the 2 sides are just splitting hairs as grace saves us and grace enables us to do any of these good works.

Amen.

God gives grace to those who do His will:

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Exodus 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

“For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.” Heb. 4:12

True.

He splits even the hair on this topic. One on side is trusting fully in Christ unto salvation, the other in works unto death. If we trust in works we aren’t fully trusting in Christ, if it all, like we should.

On the contrary, those who trust God are those who do the works that He commands.

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Whilst God may say here that faith justified Abraham and elsewhere his obedience ( work) justified him, I dare say God knows that his heart boasted not in his obedience or work, but in grace and God given faith.

On the contrary, nowhere does Abraham proclaim himself saved by his faith alone. He simply obeys all that God commands and Scripture is clear on that matter.

Genesis 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws

Hebrews 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

 

[mcq72]

Part of this is a terminology problem. It’s pretty reasonable for Catholics to read “scripture alone” and think it means, well, scripture alone.

Reminds me of same “problem” with Mary being called “mother of God”…needing more ink/ explanation to avoid normal connotation.

 

[mcq72]

On the contrary, those who trust God are those who do the works that He commands.

We go round and round…do you trust in your works as meritorious towards salvation?

I thought we agree that by faith and grace we are justified and do obedience to the law, even good works.